This thread is permanently archived
video games as an art form
| They offer interactivity that is only rivaled by sports and music. Their aesthetic experience has more sources of stimuli than purely visual arts like painting/drawing or purely audio like music; it's an art that is a composition of other arts. They offer very good stimulation when done right: exploring a world or defeating a hard boss caters to different parts of the soul. Like all art, there is more crap than quality, though
| They offer interactivity that is only rivaled by sports and music. Their aesthetic experience has more sources of stimuli than purely visual arts like painting/drawing or purely audio like music; it's an art that is a composition of other arts. They offer very good stimulation when done right: exploring a world or defeating a hard boss caters to different parts of the soul. Like all art, there is more crap than quality, though
| Videogames are art, but I personally don't primarilly think of them in that way. I play games mostly for entertainment, if I want to think about something meaningful I will read a book or watch a good film.
| I know people who get paid way too much to write articles have said this before, but when games get normalized completely in the next 20 years we're gonna see some real shit.
Provided evil corps haven't patented the jump mechanic by then anyway.
| >>58eb3a there's hope in the indie scene, they are crawling up in terms of general quality too. Some real AA ps2 era stuff by relatively small teams.
| Video games themselves are not art, but they may contain art within them. Video games as a medium can be used to express feelings, ideas and experiences, however they borrow from more traditional art forms such as visual art or music ect. For example: here's an interactive program I wrote that lets me view paintings. Is that art? No, but there is art within it. Or a text based game, is the game art? No, the writing and storytelling is.
| If games is art it's the only form of art that, if you're bad at said art form, will lock you out and prevent you from experiencing it any further. You can't be bad at reading a book, watching a movie or looking at a painting. But you can be bad at video games.
| >>758174
>Like all art, there is more crap than quality, though
Exactly that, nothing else.
>>758246 In fact you can be bad at reading a book if you don't understand its language, or if you didn't understand a part and have to read a part again, like watching a movie or a painting if you simply don't understand it you are "bad at it". Technically you are bad at the creator's impression, not necessarily the whole form of art.
| >>758259
You still have access to the entire book even if you don't understand it to the extent that the writer did. While reading a book you will formulate your own story based on what you can take in. With videogames you can't even see the next stage if you're not good enough to beat the boss.
It's not like a quiz pops up halway trough the book that asks you details about the story and if you get the wrong answers the book locks you out of the remaining pages.
| >>758259
To me, enjoying art is different than figuring out the artists impression or mental state. There is no wrong way to enjoy art in my opinion. A painting or a poem can mean something different for you than everyone else.
Videogames on the other hand. You better have good hand eye-coordination if you want to experience those sweet artistic moments.
| Videogames can absolutely be art, but the gameplay is a core part as to why they, as an art form, are different from any other medium.
>>758260 if it feels like you have to "unlock" the rest of the art piece through gameplay, the game is poorly designed. If the gameplay is part of the art and enhances it working as an integral part of the story, then that's one hell of a piece of art.
Compared to the other art forms, games are extremely new, so the industry still has to learn a lot
| Even movies took decates for directors to truly master what was possible with the work of a camera and separate movies from theater. Same will happen for games, once they stop writing movie scrips and putting some basic ass TPS action gameplay in between cutscenes with tons of ludonarrative dissonance
| Games are art and they always have been, it doesn't necessarily need to be a single still image but instead it should be able to invoke emotions into people without needing to tell the person how to feel. Games like LoZBotW can be considered art for it vas open landscapes, SkyCotl and journey are considered art for vastly different reasons, even rhythm games like muse dash, rhythm doctor, and cytus 1/2 could all be considered art for their stunning stories and visuals.
| I think games are art because of the experiences they give us. Whether I remember the details of a story or character is one thing, but my brain remembers existing in that world and interacting with stuff. I have a really strong memory of those experiences whereas I often forget how movies and books went.
| >>758260 this is not entirelity true, this in gaming would be translated as cheating if you want to skip to another zone. A book is a tool easy to cheat, but you are breaking the boundaries like if you were glitching a game, not playing as intended, not reading as intended.
It also can be translated to skip cutscenes and dialogues. Or swapping to creative mode in Minecraft.
Not even the fact that it's XXI, let's plays are Online before the game releases.
| It's not something done often in books anymore, but there were these books that would say "go to page 50" in a way to prevent people from wanting to skip anything.
So it's up to a book if it will let you do it as a videogame would also let you do that.
Videogames are simply a technological evolution to books in that they can represent and inmerse easily with more than just words. Art is not all about "being free" but sensations, including both good and bad like feeling locked.
| I mean, in my opinion video games are just as much an art form as movies, books, music etc.
That's about the extent of my opinion.
| >>758268
>if it feels like you have to "unlock" the rest of the art piece through gameplay, the game is poorly designed.
I disagree. Almost all games will prevent you from advancing to the next stage if you can't beat the prior. I'm not sure why you call this bad game design. It's been the norm since the early 80s.
| This damned question yet again... Let's see... Games have what's necesary to be considered art, but not all strive or should strive to be it. Tetris doesn't have to be art. It's purpose is to be fun, not to convey any meaning beyond "haha commie blocks go brrrrrr". Tetris having nice renditions of russian folklore music is just a side effect of trying to be fun, not art.
| As a general rule, I think art is art when it tries to convey some meaning. But what about games? Is the good route the true one or is the bad route? Is jumping this platform or this other one? Designers can only give you a general direction. Too many variables between playthroughs to have to people be comveyed the exact same message.
| And what about games like, let's say, Minecraft? Is making a giant castle for no reason art? Or is it the hole you used to survive your first night? An effortless defense, yet it has more of a story than the pointless castle.
| >>758517 if the gameplay feels like a chore the you have to sit through to get to the "art part" of the game it's obviously bad design. The gameplay should be part of the Art. Never once have i considered the gameplay as a chore in games like Doom, DMC, Metro, Dishonored, Sekiro, or many others that i could list. Because is those games, the gameplay is an integral part of the Art. While in games like TLOU2 the gameplay breaks up the pace poorly and goes against the narrative
| >>758750
Dunno what you're talking about. I never said anything about gameplay being a chore. I was explicitly talking about skill.
You're countering an argument that you made up entirely in your head.
| >>758755 nah, their arguement is hella fine and has all to do with your point.
You games arent art to you because there are skill barriers then any practice should not be considered art. A lot of books and music take more skill and knowledge be apreciated and not everyone can be professional critic of those things.
Just because you have to invest your time on something to get the full experience doesnt take any artistic merit from it
| >>758755 what im saying is that the skill challenge can be an integral part of the art, and if it's there just to give you something to do in between the movie-like cutscenes, then they aren't utilising the medium to it's full potential. Sekiro wouldn't be loved as much as it is if it was easy. I never felt like the bossfights were keeping me from experiencing the rest of the art because the combat and fights were part of the art themselves.
| >>758766 yeah, a lot of prog or avant-garde musicians are mostly appreciated only by other musicians. Many pieces can only be understood with a good grasp of music theory. And as pretentious as that seems, i love it. Same goes for games. You gotta put in the work to get the reward. Are hedge mazes a piece of art? I think so, and a lot of em have a really cool statue or some kind of reward at the centre. Video games are kinda similar. People are too strict with their concept of art.
| >>758766
Bruhh. Are you having a stroke?
>>758793
Sure, but it has *nothing* to do with what I said at all. As I said before, you're making arguments against a point that you made up in your head.
If you're not skilled enough you can't get the complete story. Period. No other art form works this way.
I don't know why you find this so hard to understand. Are you just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian or what?
| >>758818 that is just another unique factor vieogames bring to the table, it doesnt make them any less artistic.
How does a skill cealing make something less of an art
| My favourite form of art is SEX
| That said, does anyone want to make ART with me?
| >>758818 for most art forms you can't get the complete story unless you studied that specific art. You get the full product sure, but it doesn't tell the "full story" if you get what i mean. Let's take a movie for example.
Dr Strangelove.
If you don't know what period it was released in, the political situation of that period, and how cameras and lighting was used in general for comedies and noir movies, then you get only part of the picture of what makes the movie a masterpiece.
| There's even art performances that are impossible to experience fully because you will die before it's over. There's a composition called As Slow As Possibile that has been playing on a german organ in a cathedral since 2001, and it is supposed to end in 2640, if that's not a barrier to the full art piece idk what is. You can listen to sped up versions of the composition, a lot of em being around 12 hours, but you still will never listen to that performance
| Not all art is for everyone just like not all games are for everyone.
Bad hand eye coordination? If you're smart you can try Divinity Original Sin 2.
You got insane reflexes but are bad at strategy? Go for Sekiro.
You don't even know how to hold a controller or what a "computer mouse" is? Play the last of us 2 with accessibility settings
| Also now that i think about it, Language barriers are one hell of a skill requirement for all the books or movies that don't receive a translation (which is a hell of a lot of em for non-english speaking countries)
| >>758921 this is interesting, language may be a problem but with how abstract games have become there has been less of a need for translations? Games like Abzu, wandeing swan, Journey/SkyCotL, have all reached a certain point where subtitles aren't a requirement, they're universally understood for their visual story telling and it helps in spreading them throughout the world.
| Regarding the skill as a barrier angle, maybe games are the art and players are the artists. The art is only as good as the artist. A company made the canvas, paint and tools (game company), and we bought them to make our art (play the game). This is different than reading books or watching movies as those are passive forms of entertainment.
| >>758918
>if you don't know filmaking 101 or the mechanisms behind cinematic lightning techniques your appreciation of the movie is pretentios
>>758920
Wow this story seems interesting but I can't get to the conclusion because it's too hard
>You dummy, a smart person, such as myself, would simply play a different game if we wanted to know the story of that other game
>You can be bad at an artform if you decide to read a book in a different language than the one you understand
| >>759010 ya know, it's almost like i said multiple times that the gameplay and difficulty should be an integral part of the story and art, and if the gameplay is removed the whole message and meaning of the game would completely fall flat and not land. It's almost like i made fun of games that don't do that and instead use a movie style story with bits of random gameplay in between.
| >>759010
>This book seems really interesting! I guess i'll just read a different book to know the story of that other book.
| >>759025
which have been questioned several times in this thread but you keep ignoring it. in other words you think that games with shallow gameplay mechanics aren't art because the gameplay isnt integral to "the story and art". like vn:s or walking simulators with heavy empathize on story. they're not art according to your logic.
and claiming that playing a different game than the one you want to actually play is pants-on-head retarded advice
| >>759025
even worse, you claim that if you're not a game developer/movie director you cant appreciate video games/movies as art because you don't know how to code shaders, lightning etc etc
give me a break
| Yeah.. you obviously don't need to be an artist or a writer or a game developer to enjoy art. What kind of pretentious bs is this? Just chill and don't let other people tell you how to enjoy yourself.
| >>759043 no, walking simulators and visual novels can absolutely be art if the gameplay complements the story in a good way. I've been taking shots at ludonarrative dissonance, which is more common that you think in "artsy" AAA games cuz they r tryna be like movies while throwing in some random gameplay that doesn't fit with the story. "Oh Ellie is sad cuz she killed one bad person that hurt Joel. Good thing i haven't been slaughtering hundreds of innocent randoms on the way"
| There's plenty of games with "shallow" gameplay that i hold dear to my heart as artistic masterpieces. The prime example is Hellblade, third person hack and slash with annoying "puzzles". And yet, it's all integral to the narrative and you wouldn't understand Senua's mental illness as well as you do if it wasn't for those puzzles.
| >>759044 there's a huge ass fucking difference between "you can't appreciate it at all" and "you can't really get the full picture of how brilliant something is".
I have first hand experience of listening to music before and after learning how to play instruments and how that completely changed my tastes in music.
You can appreciate anything really but some things can't be truly understood without years of study.
Idk how to code, but i'd appreciate some games more if i did.
| >>759198 as a art game i would probably consider Ico, Fragile Dreams: Farewell, Katamari, Unturned... But art is subjective... So maybe even games CoD: Warzone, League of Legends, cs:go etc. can be maybe art too
| >>758173
It's definetly an art form but a limited one. Unlike say a painting or a poem where you can freely create what your inner mind seas, a game will have to be created around certain pillars like having an engaging gameplay.
| >>759219
Some game developers who are also artists in other fields say that video games aren't art because of these limitations. You might have the greatest idea in your mind but during development testing, the integral gameplay doesn't work and can't be changed without changing the entire artistic impression.
>>759219
sees*, not seas
| >>12465a
Hey btw, isn't it a bit annoying having to respond to people who takes your point and twist it into something else? Now you know how I felt talking to you, hon.
| >>759219 >>759220 every art for is limited, videogames has specific strenghts you have to play to, mainly that you are in control of the protagonist's action and that makes games on of the most immersive and engaging art forms. Sure, they are limited, but so is music, painting, sculpting, and movies. Some things you can make people experience through videogames are unique to them, and sometimes unique to the player himself.
| >>759293
>every art for is limited
Duh, the painting is limited to the canvas etc. No other art forms has as many limitations as a video game though.
| >>759331 it has limitations but certainly is one of the most complex and varied form of art that takes aspects from drawing, filming, animating, programing, sculpting, writing, singing and has a is very interactive end result
| >>759454 you know people can add to what you say without directly debating against you, right?
If you say "A" they are allowed to say "yes, but also B". The subject is videogames as art in general, they can use your comments as stepping stones for other ideas without goin against you directly.
| >>759474
It's tiresome af. When someone replies to you it's usually because they want to tell you something. I don't get the point behind replying to someone's post just to share non sequiturs that wasn't meant for him/her.
It makes convos and debates harder to follow. Why even bother??
| >>759482 >dont reply to me unless you want to fight, meh brain is 2 big bother with understandig a non confrontational convo
| >>759219 >>759220
Excuse me what? Any art form has limits. You can't paint everything just as it is in your imagination, you need time, effort and materials. The result is never 100% what you really see in your imagination, you would need more. The same goes for Videogames, but as dreams, you can interact with videogames. You can't interact with a painting unless tearing it apart counts. The only real limitation is your imagination and your ability to use tools to express it.
| >>759526 Many people analize paintings as "you can clearly see the woman is about to"... No, you can't, you are imaginating it, the woman is totally static in the painting whatever you say. In a videogame you can clearly see when something is in motion or not, the artist has a lot of freedom to play with the spectator as they want. While a painting is just one painting, a videogame can be 1000 paintings. why 1 painting can be art, but 1000 paintings together can't?
| >>759331 a painting is unanimated and in our actual century, unless you go virtual you can't really improve paintings as they are right now, there are no better materials and realism is common, a film and a song are only one-way also it depends on virtual technology unless you are doing the Tik-Tok way of "anything that makes sound is an instrument". And a book can only express with words and ocasionally some drawings.
| A videogame reunites every form of art into one, and there is no limit. If painting is upgrading, so are videogames, if films are upgrading, so are videogames. You can literally write a million lines of code, double and infinite, and there won't be a problem at all, your PC will run it unless you messed up (like if you threw your drink on a painting, it get screwed and almost impossible to fix, but coding is easier to fix) You are only limited to what do you expect to do.
| >>759530
I have no idea what your point is. Why would you even need to improve or change a painting? And why does it matter?(outside of touch-ups to combat stains or damages). Does the ability to patch games make it more or less an art form or something?
>>759532
>A videogame reunites every form of art into one, and there is no limit.
Having to develop the game within the limitations of its gameplay certainly is a hard limit, don't you think?
| >>759528
>Many people analize paintings as "you can clearly see the woman is about to"... No, you can't, you are imaginating it, the woman is totally static in the painting whatever you say.
You can definetly etrapolate data/actions from a static painting. You're completely wrong on this one...
| >>759538 yes videogame gameplay has its hard limits, but so does having to paint a still image that cannot move and has no sound. Music also is incredibly limited as the number of notes is limited and mathematically speaking, with enough time we will compose every single melody possible. Every art has hard limits
| >>759596
Please, the hard limit for music making isn't realistically achieved whereas game developers have to struggle with multitudes of artistic limitations for every project. What are you even trying to say?
| If 10 Beautiful Postcards isn't art, then what is it?
| >>759626 you just keep leaning on the same repeated arguement, do you even code? Programing is an art too and each person has their way of doing it, there are thousands of way to write 1 command, its not limited at all, just because the industry has its strong trends doesnt mean that the field itself is limited.
| Tbf i'd much rather have a boring gameplay that enhances the narrative than some dumb fun that goes against what the story is tryna do.
This thread is permanently archived
| what's your opinion on video games as an art form?