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Why Russians like me aren't rising up against Pitler
| Pitler too, for some time, has been living in an imaginary world of big abstract notions like ‘national interests’ and ‘strategic security’. Behind all this he wants, I’m sure, just to rebuild the Soviet Union in another form. He craves his place in history as Tsar Vladimir who united the ‘brotherhood of nations’ and took revenge on the West for winning the Cold War.
| In his zero-sum view of the world, the collapse of the USSR was ‘the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20thCentury.’ The thought that its mere existence might have been even more catastrophic doesn’t occur to him. Nor that no one gained more from its collapse than the people who lived under it. The notion of normal people’s problems and normal people’s lives doesn’t enter into his calculations, nor the lives of the young soldiers he’s squandering.
| So why, we’re asked, don’t we rise up against him?
Part of it is Stockholm syndrome: a hostage begins to sympathise with their captor, the ultimate authority. It’s hard to acknowledge that for 23 years – the length of Pitler’s rule – you’ve been supporting someone who turns out to be a maniac.
In Russia at the moment there is a simple denial of reality. Many Russians flatly refuse to believe that this is a real war with real cities getting really destroyed.
| This isn’t true of all Russians, of course. There’s always a percentage of people immune to propaganda and ready to protest, but the price of such protest is so high and the potential outcome so negligible, there seems little point. There aren’t so many people willing to be jailed just to show they’re against Pitler and his government.
| ‘Why don’t you kick Pitler out?’ the Ukrainians demand of us, as if it were all so simple. ‘We did it with Viktor Yanukovych in 2014.’ But the Yanukovych regime was a lot less ready to apply brute force. Pitler, meanwhile, has been preparing for this day for decades. He has thousands of well-paid enforcers ready to nip any protest in the bud.
| So what do you do if you can’t accept the media’s version of reality yet can’t do anything to oppose it? You can leave. But that’s not so simple either. I love my home and I love my parents. They definitely won’t move abroad, so it will break my heart to abandon them. And even if I sold my apartment and my car it wouldn’t help much. New laws prevent me taking anything more than $10,000 (£7,500) across the border.
| With the rouble plummeting in value, everything I own has become, in the space of three weeks, worth about half as much. I must also face the fact I don’t really have anywhere to go. There are no friends or relatives abroad that could help us find jobs or lodgings. I foresee a life of wandering from one country to another, not wanted anywhere. In the world’s eyes russians are either war-supporters or craven conformists. All these things matter when I think of changing my country.
| There may come a day when it won’t be a matter of choice anymore, but a matter of life and death. All I can do now is prepare for this moment, and hope by then it won’t be too late. It’s as the song from my youth by the Clash put it: ‘If I go it will be trouble. If I stay it will be double.’
| >make tons of children
>send them to prison through protests
>keep spamming the prison system until it breaks
lol?
| I feel for you, OP.
| I hope everything will be at least not bad for you OP.
| >>845864
I feel bad for you, OP. But the only way you're going to see any change in your country is if someone within the power regime takes a chance to change it.
I don't mean assassination, that won't fix anything long term, just create a power vacuum to enable the next 'great leader'. I mean someone has to gain power and then give it up in carefully structured ways, and with sufficient checks in place to specifically prevent this sort of heavy-handed leadership.
| It would require cultural changes in how Russian police, military, and the populace at large view their government and the purpose of said government as well.
It is not a single person, or even a single generation fix.
But Russia (the political entity) needs to accept that their way of governing has guaranteed they will never truly be a world power. Both the US and China dominate more through cultural hegemony than brute force. Fear does not a strong empire make.
| i feel for the Russian people who do not like this war, yet are stuck in a place where they feel as if they take about their distain, or even call it a "war" they get tried for treason. Please, OP, stay safe, I hope for your sake that this ends swiftly that peace is found perhaps this may serve as a wakeup call within the Russian elite, that this way of governing will only cause problems though I sadly do not think it so the Russian system is too far deep into greed and corruption
| >>848615
Pacifists get tried for treason on both sides. Pitler didn't break the rules as he didn't made them. The west failed to make something better and new after the soviet union dissolved. Instead they continued the same shitty policy as if cold war hasn't ended and as if two world wars weren't enough. And yes, It's totally possible to dislike Pitler and this war between brothers (and sisters) without sympathizing with the Ukrainian government, the EU, the NATO or the USA at all.
| Independent of how stupid and backwarded putins agenda of a russian empire is (and it is totally retarded), there IS a massive bias in how the west deals with russia. I don't understand why backwarded Arabian tyrants, who lead war in jemen and behead opponents (or chop em with a chainsaw!) are accepted partners of the west. Or why is Moroccos violation of international law in the sahara more acceptable compared to russias violation? And how sustainable is fracking LNG from the US?
| >>848863 it certainly isn't *our* police state unless you're a mutt or a mutt kisser, that's for sure
| >>848863 This is true. Making countries unstable provides opportunity to steal resources. It's also true that other countries fight like children for fucking dumb reasons
| >>848776
>why is a totalitarian nuclear power more opposed than a puppet regime you need to get cheap oil and mantain order in the region
gee i wonder
| >>e8845d
Am I somehow supposed to not think you're completely mentally ill? You have said or done nothing to prove that you are sane in any capacity.
| >>848795
The USA have no allies. Only vessels. That's why they why they worked so hard on dividing Europe.
| >>848913
Religious lunatics from that puppet state managed somehow to deal some serious damage to the USA...
| >>848776
Fumbled my phone & hit send on accident.
The psychos in the middle east are tolerated because they don't have nuclear weapons. Full stop. They stay in their own yard and keep the crimes against humanity to a minimum, and the rest of the world interferes the minimum it takes to protect our interests.
Nuclear countries enacting direct wars of conquest however are a slippery slope to nuclear weapons being used.
Especially since Russia in particular has always considered...
| But the biggest difference between the west & Russia is that our cultural decisions are style guided by the archetype of the self-sacrificing hero. The whole "do the right thing just because it's right, regardless of the cost" thing.
Russia doesn't have that. They are blatantly self-serving and (through the lens of their media presence) embrace the concept of 'might makes right' as their societal bedrock.
That is anathema to majority western society.
| >>849030
>They are blatantly self-serving
like the entirety of the political class (maybe barring individual exceptions that are allowed as a face saving measure)
they're worthy of one another
i say send congress to fight for ukraine
| >>e8845d >>0242e6 >>003179
It's true. You haven't done or said anything that proves you are sane in any capacity. You're exactly one of those reality deniers that the Russian OP talked about in her post.
Like, how are any of us supposed to not think you're completely mentally ill when you act the way you do?
| >>849077
The point is, that the gremlin isn't the only government institution in the world which breaks international law, spreads propaganda lies and leads wars.
The only reason why people in the west are upset now is because it affects white people that live in the north. They never cared for catastrophical consequences by the involvements of their governments in the global south. I bet many people in the USA still believe they only wanted to bring peace and democracy everywhere.
| Putins "war against nazism" in ukraine is as criminal as US americas "war against terror" in iraque and afghanistan. And yet the USA (and the EU) act again as if they are different. But they aren't. They are all the same capitalistic/imperialistic shitheads who don't give a damn about the "values" they preach, no matter if liberal or conservative. Because the only value that really matters is capital. Everything else is just to fool people.
| Russians and Ukrainians kill and die for illusions. Illusions of national identity and sovereignty which grant them either "western values" or "russian imperial glory". Putins justification speech for his war in ukraine is ridiclous. Not because he's entirely wrong about ukraine being "artificial", "corrupt" or even "fascist". It's ridicolous because all of this applies to russia as well, even thought with a different weighting.
| >>849027
Pakistan has nuclear weapons.
And have you forgotten that some of those psychos from the middle east managed to kill thousand of western people in the west without nuclear bombs? Why do western politicians always make the mistake to think that there are psychos they can control in order to fight other psychos? Plus it's unsocial to hope that all evil can be banned behind a geopolitical border while creating a paradise of freedom and liberty detached from global realities.
| I don't care what you shit out of your mouth. I support Ukraine
| Pitler has small PP
| I read a very interesting thread last night discussing the much higher living standards in Ukraine vs Russia. Part was intercepted phone call of soldiers. As Russian troops are retreating form the Kyiv region after having substained immense losses, they are looting houses of ordinary people. Electronics, clothes, shoes, comsetics. This is not an army. This is a disgrace.
We will never forget and we will never forgive.
| >>849183 >>849185
That's the thing about mental illnesses. You can't opt out of it to appear sane. The more he talks the more apparent it becomes.
As someone said, "I don't care what you shit out of your mouth. I support Ukraine"
Slava Ukraine!
| >>849152
With that attitude you're no better than the putinists. You believe the same kind of lies, only from the other side.
>>849183
No, it's true.
>>849185
Pathologizing oppositionals is a tool for autocrats. Do you like autocratic methods as long they aren't russian? Hypocrite!
>>849232
Kyiv is not ukraine. The living standards in the east and south of ukraine is much lower. And in st. petersburg it's quite high.
>>849234
Than you're no better than the putinists too.
| I support ukrainian people as I support the russian people, which to me is by far not equal to supporting ukraine, russia or their leaders.
| >>849307 this is what everyone supports dumbass, we're not hating the russian people (except those who defend their russian gov)
Also, it doesn't matter if ukrainians are saints or not, there's no morally justifiable reason to kill civilians, normal people (and ukraine's normal people are being killed you know.)
| >>849345
>there's no morally justifiable reason to kill civilians
For the west its "war on terror" and "liberating" yugoslavia was a morally justification to kill civilians.
In germany they told people the serbs are like the nazis, and that's why it's ok to bomb belgrad. And again in germany they told people it's no war at all but a "humanitarian operation" for digging water sources and building schools.
Of course war is shit. But those double standards in the west make me sick.
| >>849345
However, If I was the ukrainian government I would surrender as soon as possible to protect the people. The russian government has not the extermination of ukrainian people on their agenda. Pitler is an old man, and if he dies, his legacy will vanish. The political system is all centered around his personae (not the first time in russia) Ukrainians who want to fight should go underground and prepare for the post-putin era.
| But the current ukrainian government consist of selfish, power-hungry politicians and ideologically limited nationalists. They want to join the EU and NATO to protect their oligarchy and are willing to sacrifice their people to the Russian warmachine. The EU has serious democracy and corruption flaws, and the NATO is not really just a harmless defence alliance. Europe (including russia) must emancipate from the USA if it doesn't want to become a battleground between them and China.
| >>849362 The majority of people like me (a western) think those aren't good things either.
When USA was bombing Iran, Vietnam, etc, we were protesting against it.
| >>849366
And did it work?
Yeah, you didn't get locked in for demonstrating, but you didn't change anything either. It's an entirely different type and level of dystopia than that in russia.
| >>849362
that "humanitarian operation" lie of the german government reffered to the afghanistan war btw.
| >>849367 It didn't work, we the common people have almost no power nor voice over decisions like that.
That's why I don't hate the russian people for not being able to stop this war on ukraine.
And remember, the fact that we the people couldn't stop the violence back then and now, it doesn't mean it's a good thing.
Killing inocent people will always be bad. There's no double standards.
| >>849369
The problem is that many russians (especially the older people) don't really know that there IS a war. And I'm not so sure about how many would be against Pitler if they would know what's going on. I'm afraid that still many of them would support the government. Especially those russians who live in the southeast of ukraine. Between April 2014 and December 2018 about 12000 people were killed in the donbass (according to UN mission in kyiev)
| >>849372
>The problem is that many russians (especially the older people) don't really know that there IS a war.
And you, of course, know that there IS a war, right?
| That's what restricted internet access does to your perspective. My grandma is the same about one socialist political party in my country. She only watches TV all day.
| >>849440
I know what capitalistic/imperialistic leaders mean if they say "special military operation". Pitler is not the first one (and probably not the last one) who does this.
>>849451
It's interesting how fast things change. A couple of years ago the runet was the last "unrestricted" internet. Now there's no such an internet anymore, and probably there never really was. In the end all media-control is a matter of political and/or financial means. Not only in russia.
| >>849464
>Pitler is not the first one
Not only is Pitler the first one, he's so far the *only* one who have said it.
>>e8845d
Mentally ill reality-denier.
| We have child torture-apologist on this board.
Let that sink in.
We have child torture-apologists on this board.
Remember this the next time they open their mouths about pro-russian and anti-western ideals.
| >>849480
This war is not really about "russian" or "western" ideals. The ruling class in russia and the west share the same ideals: Keep the status quo of their reign. And as we can see it works very well. No one questions their reign as a political economical class. It's all about "russia versus ukraine" now.
And so many western elites who suddenly started to worry about the ugly side of war had no problem when it was their wars far away.
| The polish government is the hypocrite of the year to me. Unlike some other european nations they took part in the USAs illegal war against iraq, they systematically demontaged democracy in poland and pushed a clerical-fascistic illiberal anti-lgbt, anti-women and anti-refugee policy.
And NOW as russia attacked ukraine I should believe they changed their mind and stand in for "values" and "ideals" they violated most of the time themselves?
| >>850337
If you really think Russia and the west have the same values, you've bought far too deeply into Russian propoganda.
| >>850810
Russian and western people basically share the same values. The real conflict isn't between russia and the west, the real conflict is between political-economical elites (the upperclass) and the people (the lower classes). The lower classes in russia lost this war. They are being fooled by their leaders to believe they have to fight their brothers and sisters in the west. But the same things are happening in the west too.
| Orban, Kacinski, Erdogan but also people like Le Pen, Trump etc. are ready to take over control. The renaissance of imperalism and fascism is just the logical consequence of the totally unleashed powers of capitalism. The self-portrayal of western societies is so hypocritical. They condemn autocrats and their wars, while they offshored production to their countries and supported them with business models based on cheap resources from those autocracies.
| They wear ukraine shirts and post ukraine flags on twitter, while heating their comfy rooms with putins gas. I don't think anyone in the west is ready to give up their live standard for supporting people in ukraine. They only deliver weapons, because it's good for weapons industry and geopolitical interests - which have NOTHING to do with "values" that go beyond economical ones. Even the (for racist reasons) higher solidarity with ukrainian refugees will not last forever.
| But I'm optimistic, that at one point people all over the world will understand and unite in solidarity against ALL oligarchs, patriarchs, autocrats and tyrants from the global ruling class. But it seems that unfortunantely two world wars weren't enough learning through pain. It's tragical for all people who are smart enough to understand this but still are dragged into this pointless conflicts between imperialists.
| >>850815
No, they really don't. The kinds of systematic hazing and abuse that happen in your military simply *don't exist* in western culture, and are anathema to the concepts we build our military and society around.
Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you.
| >>850835
A quick Google search intimates otherwise.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/22/navy-staff-tolerated-widespread-child-sexual-abuse-of-recruits-royal-commission-says
I assume you are about to accuse me of cherrypicking or claim The Guardian is not a reliable source?
| I'll go in for a double feature, because admittedly that's an old case.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/16/three-marines-sentenced-to-detention-initiation-ceremony
| >>850835
https://www.thelocal.de/20170201/german-soldiers-accused-of-sadistic-sexual-rituals-and-humiliation/
https://www.wnd.com/2017/01/sadistic-naked-sex-rituals-at-german-military-base/
| >>850836
>Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you.
I'm afraid this one is not interested in arguments...
| >>b0a235 >>5fb094
Are you under the impression that digging up a single 5 year old article is somehow proof of "systematic abuse"?
To repeat what was said a moment ago: The kinds of systematic hazing and abuse that happen in your Russian military simply *don't exist* in western culture, and are anathema to the concepts we build our military and society around.
Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you.
| >>851269
Ok, the russian military probably stands out from others with systematic haze and abuse. However this still isn't a exceptional russian phenomenom. Such things are inherent to all strictly hierarchically organized institutions such as the military (but also others like the church), because it makes the abuse of power more likely. And the way you portray "russian" vs. "western culture" sounds very cultural relativistic and kinda racist.
| "Western culture" is a very vague term with much historically/ideologically bloat. It's also incorrect to view/portray russian (or any other) culture as something entirely separated from or even antagonizing to western culture.
Many people in the west still often make the mistake to believe that they have a exclusive licence for high ethical values and moralic standards, while historically and geopolitically ignoring or even fighting them outside their realm.
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| My countrymen, it seems, will make huge sacrifices for the sake of a phantom national pride. It’s this pride that’s now sending Russian forces out into Ukraine. It’s the same pride that the Ukrainians – with their rejection of us – have bruised. ‘They never liked us, they don’t respect us, now at least they will fear us,’ people around me say to justify Pitler’s invasion of the country.