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So About Critical Race Theory
| I have seen a few videos on it. To be honest from my understanding it is not only brain dead in terms of teaching that POC can never be wrong and also "decolonization" and other Uber-politicized racially charged bullshit to divide people but,the lack of objectivity is also to me more horrifying. Like instead of focusing on basics of mathmatics which the basics are important,though the complex less so in day to day. It just throws race in there along with not teaching shit.
| >>768834 I just wish some foul xenos would show up because the second some xenos show up. You know for sure we will drop our racism extremely quick. And go full imperium of man. As we should.
| I'm racist but in a peaceful way. Like, if other races don't come over and settle in our lands I'm totally alright with em. What do you think of that?
| My opinion CRT is exactly what you two >>768834 >>768851 are saying and its stupid that people are only realising it now, Ive been telling this to everyone but apparently its reight wing to treat people based character instead of the colour of thei skin, hell some people were even saying CTR teaching on schools, military, college and etc was a conspiracy theory and that it wasnt real.
| >>768861 I think thats dumb, they are all people just like you, treat them how you want to be tread now based on their looks.
| *NOT based on their looks
| >>768876 it definitely isn't real in most of those places. It's a narrow academic theory with enough jargon that like 5% of schoolchildren or soldiers would understand even if they cared. What pwople call 'critical race theory' is just a stupid media label for talking about racism
| The critical race theory discourse in america is the same as the russia discourse under trump, just party switched. The conservative media/party machine makes something up based on a tiny bit of truth to whip up people against the administration, and the liberal one says 'it's based actually' to oppose them without any more understanding
| It's like when they teach "racial harmony" in Singapore, which only has a negative effect lololol
| From my little understanding it's just viewing how systems can perpetuate racial discrimination without anyone being racist? I think not sure.
On an interpersonal level i don't think it makes sense, but on a larger scale probably.
| >>768877
Yes they are all people but slow legalized demographic genocide is a thing, which we are seeing happening in the USA where everything is going to shit. Looks like you don't understand my mindset still!
| I'm skimming trough the wikipedia-article right now and it doesn't say the same thing you keep repeating in this thread...
>>768924
>slow legalized demographic genocide is a thing
Can you back this up with cold hard facts or what?
| >CRT recognizes that racism is ingrained in the fabric and system of the American society. The individual racist need not exist to note that institutional racism is pervasive in the dominant culture. This is the analytical lens that CRT uses in examining existing power structures. CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color.
| Institutionalized racism leads to differential access to the goods, services, and opportunities of society by race. Institutionalized racism is normative, sometimes legalized and often manifests as inherited disadvantage. It is structural, having been absorbed into our institutions of custom, practice, and law, so there need not be an identifiable offender.
| Indeed, institutionalized racism is often evident as inaction in the face of need, manifesting itself both in material conditions and in access to power. With regard to the former, examples include differential access to quality education, sound housing, gainful employment, appropriate medical facilities, and a clean environment.
>>768891
Seems pretty self-explanator to me.
| In my experience, ideas like this are generally good and worth teaching when explained like this >>768932 . However, a lot of people who are both for and against them seem dead set on misrepresenting them, and a lot of people end up arguing about something totally unrelated. This is a lot more relevant with "toxic masculinity" which for some reason everyone thinks means "men are inherently toxic to women" which it has nothing to do with.
| So generally, I think yeah it should be taught in schools because currently the more common way people hear about stuff like this is through Twitter or Youtube which makes it worse for everyone but the media companies who make money off of discourse.
| >>769001 thing is people will use toxic masculinity to oppose all masculinity, they will use to justify generalization of all men and there are people who will think that way. Its like many things in life that people warp and change to fit one narrative and indoctrinate others, just like religion.
| Same happened with woke, critical race theory, marxism, etc. Modern politics is just religion 2.0
| >>769006 Yeah it's kinda ridiculous how often the people who want to advance these ideas just don't know what they are at all. I guess it's just easier to feel like you won the internet argument when you misconstrue it like that.
| >>769011 yep, be it the mainstream media, government, woke people, conspiracy theorists, neonazis, communists and even some scientists out there, they seem to just want to be seen as right instead of actually being right, its more about control than benefitting society. And then there is people saying that there is no culture war going on, like, have they been living under a rock?
| And the worst part is that this shit spreads beyond USA and causes all sorts of trouble out there, it tarnishes our enterteinment, news, debates, laws, culture and all because people are getting more and more divided
| Just concentrate on more diversity it ain't that hard. The way we are doing it now only encourages 10 year old pseudo edgeboys to share their racist stuff. I think that mixing up politics and school is bad in general. If we allow that then we have to allow all politics to be teached in school which ends with horrible dictatorship 2.0.
| Just another culture war boogeyman.
| >>769014
This, fuck the USA
>>769115
>Just concentrate on more diversity it ain't that hard
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
>>769232
And yet the damage is real.
| I don't understand why people have a problem with the idea that institutions have discriminated based on race.
There are a bunch of instances that you can point to where this has been the case, like not giving benefits to veterans after ww2. The thing that made wealthy baby boomers.
| >>769541 about as right as people who kept saying the famine wasnt real, that nazi germany did nothing wrong etc
| Critical race theory is a collegiate level theory and isn't taught to children outside of a possible handful of AP courses in high school.
Like most other academic theory, it doesn't posit any solid conclusions(ex. all white people are evil, black people can do no wrong). It asks very fundamental questions(ex. What is race? What is our relationship to race[if you have an answer to those questions, you're doing CRT]), and sometimes frameworks are built around the answers.
| The recent discourse around the subject is largely manufactured by people who want to control what ideas aren't acceptable to be exposed to.
What people don't want being taught is something subversive. "Critical race theory" is just the term that's being used this time. They chose it because it's obscure, academic sounding, and vaguely threatening when you don't know what it means. It's like like what Jordan Peterson did to the word "Postmodernism"
| *are and aren't
| No but talking about how systemic problems exist along racial lines is the real racism.
I miss the 2000s when nobody gave me shit for saying slurs.
One sec, I have to beat one out to interacial cuck porn and cry about it.
| You can teach whatever you want, but racial differences are very real and apparent. The U.S. has no future because it has no discernible identity and is a multiracial dumpster. Every group of human beings have fucked over every other group that they could. If you want to teach CRT, you should also teach the the collective sins of all people so we have a realistic world view.
| >>769973 There's a lot to respond to.
I never said that all races were exactly the same.
The first half of your is just a flimsy argument for ethnonationalism. What's wrong with a national identity that includes people of all races? Can black people not identify with a love of freedom and individuality? So long as America is a nation, it will have an identity, it's just been slightly less exclusive lately(though, this is the subject of much debate.)
| >>769973 As to the second part, CRT has nothing to do with "sins." Itself just an analytical lense that is used to help describe a portion of the human experience. The scholars who use this lense put no more moral worth on an action than a physicist would an atom. Any moralizing exists outside the purview of the theory and should be taken that way.
And we do teach the collective sins of everyone. It's part of history after all.
| >>769984
>The first half of your is just a flimsy argument for ethnonationalism. What's wrong with a national identity that includes people of all races?
Nothing, at a moral level, but at a mechanistic one, much. Racial differences produce drastic ideological differences and necessities. To try to force a universal and deracinated identity is unrealistic and immoral, imo. You can't force non-Euros into a Euro civilization because it is not adapted to them.
| >>769984
>So long as America is a nation, it will have an identity
The USA is just a product. It changes with the current demographic and that demographic is schizophrenic and skewed. What is "American" identity? Not much beyond materialistic hedonism. This country stands for nothing and has no cohesive rationale. It is merely a dying and diseased failure.
| >>769985
The problem with this is the inherent bias built into it. You can't teach such a "theory" objectively. What happens to contrarians? They will be discriminated against and marginalized.
| >Nothing, at a moral level, but at a mechanistic one, much. Racial differences produce drastic ideological differences and necessities. To try to force a universal and deracinated identity is unrealistic and immoral, imo. You can't force non-Euros into a Euro civilization because it is not adapted to them.
There is no scientific or sociological evidence to support your claims. Societies have been MORE prosperous as they have become more inclusive.
| >There is no scientific or sociological evidence to support your claims.
What claims, specifically?
>Societies have been MORE prosperous as they have become more inclusive.
Such as?
| Has this country ever stood for anything? Has any country? Aren't countries just an assortment of territories that everyone chooses to acknowledge under the threat of military violence?
The reason I said that
>So long as America is a nation, it will have an identity
Is because nations and national identity are both abstracts that necessitate each other.
| >>769992 ANY research that ANYONE conducts will have bias. That isn't an excuse to throw the concepts of research and critical thinking out wholesale. The most we can do is account for them, which anyone who takes their research seriously does.
| >>769994 The claim that people of different races can't exist in a prosperous society.
It's patently untrue when you look at the increases in economic productivity due to a wider labor base. Great leaps in science and medicine have been made by people who would have been enslaved, or murdered, or otherwise marginalized in an older version of many societies. General happiness has increased due to decreased generalization.
| What's weirder is that you seem to want a mono-racial society, but you're against the idea of universal identity(a concept nobody was talking about until you).
Then, when you tried to talk about how multiracialism has harmed the American identity, you started describing consumerism.
| >>769995
>Has this country ever stood for anything?
Greed, moral obsession (of this and that, depending on the times) and hedonism.
>Aren't countries just an assortment of territories that everyone chooses to acknowledge under the threat of military violence?
Yes, and why is that a good thing? You seem nationalistic, whereas I am not.
>ANY research that ANYONE conducts will have bias.
There is a difference in degree. CRT is too "flimsy" and subjective to be a....
| >>770002
Part of an academic curriculum that seeks to socially engineer a society for the "better". At the end of the day, it's just propaganda, because that's the purpose of it.
| >>769999
>It's patently untrue when you look at the increases in economic productivity due to a wider labor base.
Such as? America was fine with the different Euro ethnicities working together. Now, we are quickly accelerating towards the 3rd World due to demographic change. Sweden is a good example of this.
>Great leaps in science and medicine have been made by people who would have been enslaved, or murdered, or marginalized in an older version of many societies
Such as?
| >What's weirder is that you seem to want a mono-racial society ,but you're against the idea of universal identity(a concept nobody was talking about until you)
Of course, because I despise conformity. My dream is a Euro ethnostate where Euros of all ethnicities, religions, ideas and sexualities coexist. "America" is just about servitude and productivity at the expense of human cost.
| >>770001
>Then, when you tried to talk about how multiracialism has harmed the American identity, you started describing consumerism.
Because that's what the USA is about. When did the US have the most distinctive culture? Probably the days of the Wild West. Everything else is just capitalism.
| You won't find an argument here when it comes to US greed, but I don't think I've said anything close to nationalistic. I literally have just described a fraction of how they work. You however have been making 3rd positionist arguments since you got here. Just because you criticize a nation doesn't mean you're not nationalistic.
| And what specifically about CRT makes it more flimsy than say, formalism or sign theory? You made an arguement against critical thinking as a whole.
| The goal of CRT isn't to engineer a better society, it's to describe the one we live in.
| >>770009
>but I don't think I've said anything close to nationalistic
I strongly disagree. You are reflexively advocating the USAnian paradigm. "We should all live together and be prosperous". This is America in a nutshell.
>You however have been making 3rd positionist arguments since you got here.
Lol, so it seems. I am neither a NatSoc or Fascist. In fact, I am extremely "liberal" and open minded, albeit with a good dose of realism.
| And different Euro ethnicities didn't work together in America for the longest time. It was founded as an Anglo-saxon nation and germans, irish people and Italians were discriminated against for the longest time.
As to the economic impact, it's happened across all fields eventually. It was a little rocky starting off because many white people would abandon their jobs once black people started working there, but we turned out better in the end. Not perfect, but better.
| Also, you're arguing for economic stagnation, which would be more disastrous right now than any amount of multiculturalism.
| >>770009
>And what specifically about CRT makes it more flimsy than say, formalism or sign theory?
I have no idea what these things are. The problem with CRT is it assumes a position of racial universality. "Blacks are disadvantaged because how they've been treated, but not because of how they are born". This is pseudoscience being taught. Racial differences are scientifically documented and observable in the real world. Why does CRT not teach this?
| As for the scientific advancements you can research George Washington Carver, David Ho, or Albert Einstein, a german jewish atheist that might not have found the security to continue his studies in America if he had come a few generations earlier.
| To your point about Sweden, they're doing better because of the immigration. They compose a substantial part of their labor and were they not there, people up to 20 years older would have been working their jobs on welfare.
| The main problem with CTR is what I described earlier, people will and are using it to indoctrinate people with pitical agendas >>d79af3 should be aware of that and>>c59882 should educate themselves on some baseline philosophy and sociology.
| And the "Wild West" era was characterized by feverish, one might say "greedy" expansion into the west. It came at the expense of many lives white and non-white. It wasn't like the movies man.
| >>c59882
"We should all live together and be prosperous" is a vacuous statement and I've never said that. That's what you believe white people should do.
Moreover, you're personal political identity doesn't really matter in the face of the arguments you've made. You have literally argued against critical thinking and for an all white nation state. There's nothing even classically liberal about that.
| >>8d4ac3
While I appreciate the non-ethnonationalist input I have to disagree. CRT for the most part isn't taught outside of universities. It's not something broader society is exposed to.
And there's no more "political agenda" there than there is in any other academic theory. It's agenda is to attempt to analyze the way race exists in society. Again, it's not a set of answers and definitions.
I'd argue that anyone telling you otherwise has a political agenda.
| >>770015 CRT doesn't assume anything. CRT doesn't teach anything. It is a set of questions. Many theorists do however acknowledge racial differences. The part I think you'd take issue with is that these differences are not that white and black people can't exist together. Claims of this sort have widely been rebutted for decades on decades and even in this convo.
| >>770018
>As for the scientific advancements you can research George Washington Carver, David Ho, or Albert Einstein
OK, but what you lose is far greater. As a STEM student I appreciate all of these men, but even as an "ethnonationalist" I would've funded all of these men, if I had the $. You don't need something like the USA, you just need international cooperation or international infrastructure to facilitate such minds.
| >And different Euro ethnicities didn't work together in America for the longest time. It was founded as an Anglo-saxon nation and germans, irish people and Italians were discriminated against for the longest time.
This is a flat lie. Within a single generation, Euro ethnicities interbred and worked together.
>Also, you're arguing for economic stagnation
Maybe you're right, but to me, there is more to life than money.
| >>770019
>To your point about Sweden, they're doing better because of the immigration.
Are you fucking kidding me? There is a reason Sweden is the meme of a collapsing society. They are slotted to be a 3rd world country by 2030. That's directly from interracial immigration.
| >>770022
>Wild west
I didn't say it was to be romanticized, I said it's one of the few points this country had a real, particular identity. Everything after it has been about production and consumption.
| >CRT doesn't assume anything. CRT doesn't teach anything. It is a set of questions. Many theorists do however acknowledge racial differences.
Proof? Honestly, I would support such a thing, but everything seems to be contrary to what you assert.
>Claims of this sort have widely been rebutted for decades on decades and even in this convo.
Proofs?
| >>770027
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how you personality feel about these guys. They would be relegated to unknown fates in the world that you want. They never would have had the chance to become who they were and do what they did.
| >>770028
It's true dude. Irish people were discriminated against during the industrial revolution. "Irish need not apply." Don't even get me started on Russians during the cold war.
| Speaking of, how would an all white society be more likely to remain peaceful and prosperous? It seems like largely white groups of people have shed a lot of blood between each other. And why are we conflating European with white now? There's plenty of Europeans that nobody would consider white. Bugsy Malone is a black, European rapper for instance.
| And when we talk about economics, we're not just talking about money. We're talking about resources going where they need to go and how they get there. Money is just a mediator. You didn't make some anti-materialistic argument, you just argued for lowering the quality of life for people.
| >>770039
>It doesn't matter how you personality feel about these guys. They would be relegated to unknown fates in the world that you want.
World? I don't want the world, just a place for my people to flourish and be themselves. I strongly support science of all nationalities and if I had my way, such men (and women) would be given all the tools necessary to cultivate their respective fields.
| >>770040
>Irish people were discriminated against during the industrial revolution. "Irish need not apply.
Of course, for an extremely short period of time. Within a generation, they were integrated. Don't bullshit me. I'm German, French, Irish, Hungarian and Spanish. I'm proof of Euro cooperation.
| >>770029 Sweden is only that meme in extremely far right communities who don't know what's going on. Their population was thinning similarly to Japan's and they made a smart move. I'm not saying they're some utopia, but what they did was a net positive and they're nowhere close to being a "third world" country.
| >>770041
>Speaking of, how would an all white society be more likely to remain peaceful and prosperous?
It depends on the people. All I know is that I have a desire to coexist with others of differing ethnicities, religions, ideas and sexualities. If you gather like minded folks, it could probably happen.
| >>770041
>And why are we conflating European with white now?
Because Europe is "White". I hate the term, but all native people of Europe have light to olive skin. Hence, "White". Any cultural connotations are temporal and illusory.
| >>770044 Bro, they were discriminated against since this country's inception. People called them "reverse negros." So were the germans and the, "thick-blooded, slow witted nords."
Also, I don't know what your personal ancestry has to do with anything. Are mixed race people proof that the races CAN coexist?
| >>770042
>Lowering the quality of life
There are many tiny Euro countries with huge "qualities of life". Monaco, Luxembourg, Switzerland, etc. Population and growth isn't everything. Efficiency and efficacy does matter.
| >>770048
>Bro, they were discriminated against since this country's inception. People called them "reverse negros." So were the germans and the, "thick-blooded, slow witted nords."
Lol, no. A little autism didn't stop their kids playing in the streets. You are literally blowing this shit out of proportion. If what you said was true, we'd be kneeling for Patty O Mac getting kneed by Chauvin, lol.
| >>770047 What you're describing isn't race anymore. It's a muddling of ethnicity and nationality. Our modern conception of what it means to be "white" as in the race, has only existed for a few centuries.
| >Also, I don't know what your personal ancestry has to do with anything.
It's just proof against your dishonesty. If America were really so prejudiced, I wouldn't exist.
>Are mixed race people proof that the races CAN coexist?
Lol, I'm not "mixed race". I'm just mixed ethnicity. Mixed race people can exist, but if you want to live in Brazil, go ahead.
| >>770051
>Our modern conception of what it means to be "white" as in the race, has only existed for a few centuries.
And?
| Let me try and get these arguments organized.
>What is critical race theory?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#:~:text=Critical%20race%20theory%20(CRT)%20is,liberal%20approaches%20to%20racial%20justice.
It's not a set of conclusions. It's a process of examining our relationship to race.
>Is Sweden becoming a third world country?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17955808
Not really.
| >>770052 brazil is bad because of government corruption not mixed race, brazil was also doing fine in racial talking points before the CTR and culture war from USA started to spread to other countries.
| >Has America(or european nations at large) ever marginalized other Europeans?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment#:~:text=Anti%2DIrish%20sentiment%2C%20also%20called,their%20descendants%20in%20the%20Irish
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-German_sentiment
YES.
| >>770056
Brasil isn't doing great on race. There's been protests for years and years and Bolsonaro referred to people protesting racial injustice as "violent gorillas."
| It takes some huge leaps in logic to assume societal problems are caused by races living together, but you see people who eather say thing are inherently racist or that they are bad because of races coexisting, both are huge fallacies that are only backed up by skewed data and studies or ignorant people assumin person experience equals to statistics.
| >>c59882 Also, I never said you were mixed race dude. You made the argument that since you're descended from people of different ethnicities, there could never have been any inter-white conflict in America.
I'm saying you could make the same argument for people of mixed race.
| >>770058 did you read what I wrote? Also bolsonaro got elected around the same time as the race problems from USA started to blow up, also curruption in the brazilian government dates back way before bolsonaro, I live in brazil
| >Luxemborg, Switzerland, and Monaco are prosperous and nearly homogeneous.
That's because they're a fraction of the size of the US and have Socdems planning the economy. Different countries require different resources and labor is one that the US is always in need of.
| >>770062 I'm sorry I might have misread. It seemed like you made the argument that Brazil was ok racially before "CRT" it's not the case. It was the last country to abolish slavery.
I was making the argument that Brazil is far from fine when it comes to race and it has nothing to do with CRT (which we're still not using right).
I don't think I said anything about Bolsonaro being corrupt or that it started with him, I just used the example of the leader of Brazil being racist.
| Again, sorry. There's a lot of arguements to respond to.
| >>770064 after the 2000s we were doing fine racially, no organized hate crime, most cases of racism were isolated(we ccould report with no discrimination) and imigrants were always recieved with open arms, if that is not doing fine racially to you...
Then around early 2017 USA racial talking points started to appear, internet, and it got really popular in 2018 and now the country is a divided, not as much as USA.
| As for Bolsonaro, he isnt racist, he is just dumb and gets taken out context by the media and his haters to make him look even dumber, he is more of a natiolists conservative who has ties with the military, he is rude and people take that as proof to say he is "whatever"phobe they wanna project, then his supporters will paint him as a savior fighting corruption when he is in truth just and old idiot with no plans li most brazilian presidents.
| >Bolsonaro referred to people protesting racial injustice as "violent gorillas."
Context: violent gorillas is an old slang to refer to someone as brute and ignorant.
Btw the same people who protested in these movements were also the ones who kept celebrating when a radical individual stabbed him with a knife during a rally, which was a great turning point and caused a lot of division even among leftist.
| >>6dcb00 This just isn't true. Tension around race isn't a new phenomenon in Brazil. In 2011 63.7%
And Brazil still isn't good on race. Brazillian people believed that race negatively impacted quality of life. Brazil was the last country to abolish slavery and there wasn't even an attempt at reconstruction. Black people were left to make their way in the world with literally nothing.
| If you're born black in Brazil you're more likely to experience poverty, illiteracy, unemployment, and have a lower life expectancy. This is what people talk about when they talk about systemic racism.
People in the US have said similar things as you, but the truth is, the racism didn't go anywhere, it just got harder to notice.
| *63.7% of people believed that race impacted quality of life.
| And Bolsonaro is more than just and idiot, he's an idiot authoritarian. He's expressed a desire to return to the days of military dictatorship in Brazil, praised Pinochet, and says that change won't come until you "kill 30,000 people."
The phrase he used was still racist. The term "gorilla" has been used as a derogatory term for black people for centuries, and him using it in this context is racially charged to say the least.
| And while I think physical violence is usually something to be avoided in politics, Bolsonaro himself has called for it multiple times. I'm sure it was a divisive event. It would be for most tyrants who have developed cults of personality.
I'm no more upset about him getting stabbed as I am Ceasar.
| >>770181 >And Brazil still isn't good on race. Brazillian people believed that race negatively impacted quality of life.
That was in the 80s
>Brazil was the last country to abolish slavery and there wasn't even an attempt at reconstruction.
and... this is like saying japan was the last country to stop fighting in the WW2 does that that make them seem worse? Slavery ended period, that not even a relevant arguement since it was 300 yrs ago.
| >>770182 >If you're born black in Brazil you're more likely to experience poverty, illiteracy, unemployment, and have a lower life expectancy. This is what people talk about when they talk about systemic racism.
Its a 3dr world country, its not racism, its bad politicians, tax deviation and eneducated population. This goes to all regeions of brazil independent off race, porverty isnt a black people thing.
| Like this why CTR does to people, it makes them think problems are inherently racist when most cases they are caused by incompetence, government loves this because it keeps people distracted with eachother instead of looking at the irresponsible acts of their major institutions.
| >>770183 would be cooler if you at least gave a date of when this study was conducted, and even then, isnt that what you want people to think? that all their problems are caused because they were born with the wrong color? Like this is what you are propagating, that problems arent the fault of government, they are caused by racism.
| >>770185 >>770186 he just says authoritarian shit, he doesn do what he promises, he doesnt take action on thoses things, he is not authoritarian he is a dog who barks louds but doesnt bite, the worst thing he did was the handling the vaccination poorly, and before the pandemic he wasnt doing anything besides try to pass guns laws.
| The fact that you dont even know if he practices what he preaches show how you only are only looking superficially into de issue and calling it racism.
This lack of in depth analysis of poverty, politcs and laws is what causes most people to lean towards blaming it all on superficial characteristics like race and political spectrum, while demonizing the rival side and and engranding their own
| >>6dcb00 The study was published in 2011 and I said so in the original response. Racism in Brazil didn't disappear after the 80s and people didn't stop talking about it. You just started hearing more discourse around 2017 dude.
Also, you missed the point of me mentioning Brazil being the last country to abolish slavery. This fact means that there was less time there than any other to reconstruct. It wasn't some attempt to quantify Brazil's sins or something.
| Also how would the govt benefit from people analyzing the institutions by which they remain in power? So much of Brazil's and many other countries' govts are predicated on racially predjudiced political institutions. That's why 54% of Brazil is black and are only represented by 24% of the legislature(as of 2018).
Brazil being a 3rd world country doesn't account for the disparities between black and white people. Life is bad for many people, but being black doesn't help.
| Jair Bolsonaro's beliefs and rhetoric are exactly why he's an authoritarian. He's spouting anti-democratic conspiracy theories and praising fascist dictators from an incredibly powerful position, and that gives them a kind of legitimacy in the eyes of many people. By YOUR own admission, people buy into it.
| He's cultivating an authoritarian culture in an extremely young democracy.
| You're not going to find me defending Brazil's government. It would be terrible without it's racist and authoritarian elements, but those ARE part of it. It doesn't help anyone but the people in power to ignore how they stay in power.
| >>770217 but here is the question, do you live in brazil? Are you part of minority in brazil? Do you keep up with the news in brazil?
What goes on inside is tottaly different thnb what you are saying, I know because Im here, Im black, I watch the news and I talk with people.
Having "time to recontruct" is not really a thing, our current situation of poverty affects all kinds of people
| >>770218 what about pardos, asians and natives? There is much more than black and white people in brazil, but everyone from outside makes the same mistakes when trying to bring up race in discussion, they ignore the diversity and the ammount of racially mixed people.
>but being black doesn't help.
Of course it doesnt, it shouldnt anyway, being white doesnt help either, what helps in being pretty or having money from the start
| Also there also comes the problem of what to do? Should we give money to every black person? It benefits me but I dont need it, make so its easier for them to enter college, start quotas? We have those already, give free education and health care? We do that too.
Like our economy sucks and the laws are not friendly towards new business, tax deviation also makes things worse, its a lot more complex than ending racism
| >>770219 >>770220 but doesnt practice what he preaches, his support has been falling down every month, even before the pandemic people were noticing he was all bark and no fight, there are many ex-supporters of his, people are not generaly siding with him because he was only elected because he was not from PT(a political party) and people wanted to remove that party due to massive scandals or corruption
| >>770221 Im not saying you are defending, Im saying you missing the context and putting an americanized view of our politics which in turn deviates from the main course of action.
People want change, so of cource the guy who is from an different party gets elected, despite all the shit he says, the same happened with trump and biden, people dont care, and bolsonaro probably wont last the 4 yrs specially now with current events
| There is a lot of things that need to happen to solver poverty in brazil, race is least important thing thing because we already have systems and cultural awareness, need a better economy, more condtions to invest in small business, better tax applicattions, better energy and resource management, plumbbing and electricity in all regions, etc.
We gotta fix that first, not just blind spend money and resources racial awareness education programs and USA needs that foccus too.
| A lot of porverty stars because of race, but poverty doesnt remain because of race.
| >trying so hard to ignore the fact that nigs are inferior
k yanks lmao
| What sucks more is that countries that actually have heavy cases of racial problems, gender issues, sexuality repressions and authoritarian laws get burried cuz murica decided that their problems are somehow equivalent to nazi germany.
They say they care but only when its in their sorundings
They say issues matter but scoff at anyone who says other hae it worse
They say they wanna fix it but they only know how screech in hate towards anyone who doesnt follow them
| Rip some African, Asian and European countries, murica problems seem to be the real issue
| >>6dcb00 I appreciate your perspective, and that's probably valuable in a lot of areas, but when assessing the state of race relations in Brazil, it doesn't seem especially relevant.>>c59882 is a white American and didn't seem to know much about white people in America.
Either way, there's countless Brazilian journalists, sociologists and political theorists that would agree with me.
And I only mentioned black people for the sake of simplicity. The race relations are complex.
| http://ultimainstancia.uol.com.br/conteudo/colunas/54059/mais+de+65%25+dos+assassinados+no+brasil+sao+negros.shtml Homicide rate in Brazil (2009) (in Portuguese)]
http://ultimainstancia.uol.com.br/conteudo/colunas/54059/mais+de+65%25+dos+assassinados+no+brasil+sao+negros.shtml
http://www.folhadoms.com.br/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=32909:negros-t%C3%AAm-expectativa-de-vida-seis-anos-menor-do-que-os-brancos&Itemid=6
>>962ba8 >>6dcb00
Links that I think are helpful.
| I'm not saying that racism is the only problem in Brazilian politics, or even that it's the most important, but it's undeniably one of them.
This isn't a US issue being imposed either. I've never once used my perspective as an American to inform my opinion on Brazil, and I've never gone out of my way to bring up the US in this convo.
| The conversation got here because someone said Brazil was doing fine on race a while ago, and that's just not what the data shows.
I understand that widespread poverty is a pervasive issue, I would never deny that. I was talking about race in Brazil because that's what the other person brought up.
Again, the US and its problems have nothing to do with this convo.
| And it's great that Brazil has programs to assist black people, but as the numbers show, it hasn't really helped to solve racial inequality.
As far as Bolsonaro, even if all he ever did was run a talk show or something, he still would be doing harm. He stirs a lot of far-right fervor and >>6dcb00 admitted that people buy it. He doesn't even neccesarily have to be popular. Tons of extremist movements have been political minorities and done plenty harm.
| >>770273 >>770275
Those statistics dont really confirm what you say, it shows that black people have lower rates of survival, but then again its not because they are oppressed or suffering from hate crimes, its just thay because most black people(note that most studies put pardos with blacks) are poor they are of course more vulnerable to crime, violence etc which are all more frequent in poor places
| If it was an statistic about who kills more black people in brazil and the answer was white people I would understand.
Because when you look at that data there are many ways to look at it, if you go by CTR of course you will think its a race issue, but if you look at it by demografic and economical lenses you will see that it all tracks down to porverty, they are less likely to live not because racism but because poverty
| >>770281 thing is if you solve poverty you solve most problems, criminality, education, economy, all get fixed in the process, race it literally the last thing that needs sopving because race motivated crimes, issues of racism are not as wide spread as people are claiming to be.
The fact that people are treating it as if we are fighting nazis shows how unfoccused and derranged they are when there is clearly worse stuff to solve.
| Hell even in america they have problems much bigger and yet you guys insist on pulling the race card,if these people really want to solve these problems they should look at arabia, north korea, china, those countries have problems with either racial inequality, authoritarian goverments or even both at once, you guys have yet to solve sustainable energy production, tensions with russia and china, boarder crisis, recover the economy, get a clue.
| >>770294 those programs dont solve the issue because its of 2 factors
1: race innequality was caused by racism, BUT it does not remain because of racism but rather because the class mobility in brazil sucks dues to bad economy, lack of local investiment and inept government.
2: if the center west states(where most people are) had better conditions, most of the population in poverty would be white people because the living conditions of north east states are worse than favelas.
| So while there is more black poverty, white poverty seems to be in a worse general condition.
>>770294 also no, I straight up said that people didnt vote for him because they believed what he said but because he was different, he didnt belong to the stablishment, the PT party, people wanted change and they didnt care for what he said, the amount of people who put faith on him are a minority and they havent taken any action.
| The biggest politically motivated crime was a far left individual who stabbed bolsonaro but even then, that was yrs ago, we dont have any recent political crimes, its much more complex then bozonaro(joke) ralling up far right extremist.
| >>770350 I think you're missing the point. Poverty and race are CONNECTED. The average GDP of an Afro-Brazilians is $7,631 less than the GDP of white Brazilians. The issues of race and class
| The issues of race and class often intersect, and that's what we're seeing here. And like I said, a lot of these racial-economic disparities exist downwind of slavery. Brazil has done the bare minimum when it comes to rectifying that. If it had done otherwise, these inequalities wouldn't have persisted into the present.
| Racism is about more than who murders who. It can be so entrenched in a society that people don't even notice it. Brazil, and many other countries are suffering from systemic racism.
| >>770353 You can solve racial and class issues at the same time. Anyone who knows anything about either won't tell you otherwise. Most of the great civil rights leaders throughout history have been extremely progressive economically as well.
| >>770356 You're still ignoring the fact that a race tracks onto poverty. Class mobility is bad, and if you're born black, you're much more likely to be born in a financially disadvantageous position. While poverty afflicts every race, it seems that for black Brazilians race compounds with poverty in a uniquely harmful way.
| I'd like to ask a question and I hope you humor me.
Let's say, that before you're born, you are given the sole task of maximizing your prosperity in life, but you can only control one variable: your race.
Given all the information we went over, what race would you choose?
| Its a stupid question, why would I think race is the sole factor behind wealth?
| >>770365 >>770368 >>770370 the mistake you are making is assuming that poverty is racially manufactured maliciously just because there is a racial disparity, when its just a conssequence of poor decisions from our ancestors and lack of class mobility
| The exact words about Bolsonaro I'm referring to are
>his supporters will paint him as a savior fighting corruption when he is in truth just and old idiot with no plans li most brazilian presidents.
In here, you admit that he has supporters and that they are unable to see reality when it comes to this guy.
This is always where it starts. Some authoritarian feeds vulnerable people a bogus narrative, stirs them up, and it always seems dumb at first, until it's too late.
| I said it before poverty may have started from racism but it wasnt mantained by racism, it was mantained because the country sucks and achieving higher grounds is hard, for everyone middle class stays middle class, low class stays low class and high class stay high class withr are exception due to lack of opportunities
| >>770380 but did you listen to rest I said? They belive he is ending corruption not that his talking points matter, hell most of his supporters dont even believe in most he says and he has been going downhill.
You are actively ignoring what Im saying just to present your biased talking point like he is some next hitler or something, pretty scummy.
Like her stirred radical leftism against himself if anything.
| >>770377 You're missing the point. This isn't a zero-sum game. Race is a CONTRIBUTING factor when it comes to a person's wealth at birth, as demonstrated by the GDP statistics. As>>6dcb00 said, class mobility is horrible in Brazil. With that information, it is only logical to conclude that black people are at a unique disadvantage when it comes to quality of life. The death by homicide rate is 65%. We were talking about whether Brazil is doing okay on race, and it clearly isn't.
| Also you keep ignoring what saying about race and poverty too like its the third time I said what I wrote at >>770382
Like, if you are jusy going to loop the same arguements why bother?
| >>770389
Come on faggot you shouldn't be the one calling out people for ignorning single statements considering you're ignoring every post that proves you wrong.
You know you're fucking crazy, right?
| >>770387 but they arent at that advantage because they are black, it because they descend from poor families, so its not racism, it lack of class mobility sove that problem and you "end racism", if you can end racism without fighting against racism this can only mean the problem was not about racism.
You are ignoring it again, it started with racism but it isnt remaining becauses racism its lack of class mobility
| >>770390 what did I ignore in the first place? I answered most of his posts even some that weren not meant for me. Get an arguement if you wanna talk this bad.
| In current times black are not oppressed into poverty they are stuck in poverty its different, there is no conspiracy or plans to actively keep these people poor, its just that the system makes people stay where they are financially, well it feels like we are getting more and more poor actually but thats because of the pandemic even the "elites" are starting to feel troubled about it but you should understand it by now.
| And btw, I think discrimination towards poor people is actually a higher problem and I know it is because of many of the many black families I know.
Middle class families dont get discrimination, lower class do, which further enhances the point that it is closer to a class issue than a race issue.
| >>770389 Idk what you're talking about. I included the point them believing he's an enemy of corruption in the quote I took. I'm not ignoring what you write, I think you are.
I've never said people believe in what he says. In fact I don't know if the average Bolsonaro supporter could name a handful of his policies. That's what's insidious about personality cults. They don't believe in ideas, they believe in PEOPLE.
It's a tool used by authoritarians throughout history.
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-politics-idUSKBN29S0HK
I just looked this up. While Bolsonaro's support has been waning(which I never contested) 37% of Brazilians would still rate his administration as "excellent"
That's over 1 in 3 Brazilians who would throw their weight behind an administration that has openly yearned for the days of military dictatorship and praised fascists. That's not a good place for society. People like Bolsonaro have done worse with way less.
| But maybe you're right. I hope you're right. Maybe we'll just wake up one day and come to find that this guy and the fires he stoked are fizzled out. It's just not what happens usually. Sentiments like this don't go out quietly. It doesn't have to happen today, or tomorrow, but if we just ignore phenomenons like this, people get killed, and democracies die. Laughing doesn't stop fascism.
| >>770391 You're not connecting a very simple dot. Poor black descend from poor families yes, but they're poor because their parents were poor, and they're poor because their parents were poor, and their poor because their parents were poor, and they're poor because their parents were SLAVES. Poverty and racism are DUAL issues in case. They perpetuate each other if left untreated.
What you're doing is looking at a guy who was shot and saying, "Technically, he died from infection."
| Like, sure, that's true but the guy was still shot. And racism is still a problem in Brazil.
The very fact that these disparities exist is in and of itself a form of racism. This is what people mean when they talk about systemic racism. It doesn't have to be an active conspiracy, this state of affairs can be maintained passively by just ignoring it, which you're doing right now. That's what makes it systemic.
Idk how many ways I can try and rephrase this.
| >>770394 Regarding this statement, while again, I would never make light of classism, this is really reductive.
I hope you'll forgive me for bringing an issue from the US into this convo, but Barack Obama is a very wealthy and powerful guy. He's also black. And it's because he's black that he's had his legitimacy as a president questioned by people who believed in the birther conspiracy. This included several high profile politicians.
| Class is often an insulator against racism, but that doesn't mean it works all the time. If it can happen to Obama, I think it can happen to middle class black people in Brazil.
As to the severity of racism vs classism, you'd have to take that on a case by case basis. Not every instance of bigotry is going to be the same.
| >>3b6107
After all the evidence we've looked over, I find it hard to believe that Brazil is some post-racial society dude.
I don't agree with the slur that was aimed at you, or the insinuation you aren't a black guy from Brazil, but I have to agree that you're fucking crazy if you think that it is.
| To bring this back to the point of this thread:
CRT isn't something to be feared or hated. It doesn't teach that whit people are evil, or to only see the world as a series of racial interactions.
It is an academic lens that we can use to analyze race and society. It's a series of questions to ask.
When we demonize critically thinking about race we get people like >>3b6107 and>>c59882. Two different people unable to process uncomfortable realities about the world we're in.
| >>770401 >>770402 but have his supporters done anything? No, has bolsonaro done anything? No, you are acting paranoic, not everyone means what they say, people lie, and brazilian prrsidents in genreral lie a lot, they make promises and only try to fulfil 1 or 2, what you are posting is just sensacionlism, "we gotta stop the facist before he does something!" that is derranged and if you worry about authoritarians there are other countries you should look at.
| >>770404 here is the thing, if have any of the programs to "solve racism" helped someone to come out of poverty? No, so racism is not what is keeping people poor.
Here is the issue, you are bringing a problem of 300yrs ago and thinking that it is as relevant and that time, but currently in modern times what was a race issue became a class issue, you are thinking like were arw in the 1700s.
| My dad was not the one hunting doves to eat because he was black, it was because he was poor, my grandpa from moms side was not an orphan because he was black it was because he was poor, they managed to ghrow beyond poverty because they were hard workers and VERY lucky, they were no held back because racism, when they tried to grow they didnt face discrimination, they saw respect.
| It wasnt just those 2, I have many collegues who were also descent from poor black families, around 17 more families, they faced discrimination but not because of their race.
| Why is it that "racism" vanishes when they become a middle class individual? Ask it to yourself
>>770404 >>770405 your analogy sucks, a shot happens in 3.5 seconds, the end of slavery and current state of black people took almost 300 yrs and gettin shot usually doesnt kill you unless its an untreated wound. You are stuck in past man, black people currently face poverty, not racism.
| >>770407 >>770409 heres is the deal, Oabama was not necessearly a good president I would say, he was like Lula(a white guy who was president here) he knew how to talk, he was very informed, had a wealth but also faced poverty and discrimination in his past, they became presidents BUT they had a bunch of underground problems that some people still refuse to accept, now obama did face racism that is a fact but he is also not a good presiend in therm of practices but they defended him
| And one of the best ways to defend a black person and pull out the race card, despite all the aggressive espionage, engament in conflics in the middle east and few questionable actions, people still talk as iff the only reason people dislike him was because he is black.
That is my take on Obama, he was an ok president whos best advantages was speaking gracefully and the media sheilding most of his critics wth his color.
| >>770412 Im not sayin brazil is post racial, Im saying that racial problems are not as prevalent to as people are making it to be and that we could solve most of these problems if we stopped looking at what happened 300 yrs ago and looked at the current state of the country, how the modern black people feel, how they can build a future for themselves, we are no slaves anymore, we are people looking for opportunities to rise
| And what is holding us back is the lack of opportunities which is also holding back most people in this country independent of race, because the issue is beyond just race, at first it was race, now the least factor is race, its poverty and historical reparations do not solve poverty.
| >>770419 CTR is being used to doectrinate people into looking at everything with a racial bias, Its not that CTR was made for it, It is being USED to make it.
That is why people are not accepting CTR, that is why I dont accept CTR being taught beyond social studies, if not even college level students can be taught correclty why would we teach it to kids teens and people who are generally not interested in it?
| USA is so fucked that their problems start spreading to other countries like a plague, nobody cared about brazil, but now we gotta solve racism.
"you are not poor because the system is broken and have no opporuties its because you are black, proof to this? Well if we look at statstics with critical eye most poor people are black so of course you are poor because you are black not because the system is broken, we gotta fix racism not the sistem"
| I UNDERSTAND we got poor because we were black, because 300 yrs ago being black was somehow worthy of it, but nowadays because brazil is much more diverse and because we are much more socially aware we do not face discrimination for being black, classism became a much worse issue over time because statistic show that poor people commit more violent crimes, high class people hate those crimes, so people hate poor people who(because past racism) are black.
| And compare the avere life of a poor person in USA to a poor person in Brazil, I think would rather be poor in the USA cuz we can at least afford basic neccecities most of the time plus still have some to buy commodities, which is turn does mean USA has a race problem, despite their poor citizens mostly having a decent life, steriotypes and misconceptio still make people hate them.
| Like, in brazil I wouldnt mind being black, in USA its another story, you guys have heavy black steriotypes, a heavy black identity and heavy black standing points.
Like, I dont feel confortable saying nigga despite being black because:
1 Im not "american"(hate to say this, america is a continent not a country)
2 I dont have this much of an identity put on myself for just being black, the worst I get I being assumed to like basket but Im 1,80 meters tall its understandable.
| And speaking of identity, I thing USA has a huge problem problem with identitarianism, I dont wanna dive too deep but like, everything seems to be an identity with steriotypes and rules, I dont get it, I think that might even be the reason why racism is such a problem but its more of an assumptin due to culture shock, we dont have this need to lable ourselves here.
| >>3b6107
This is so fucking deranged...
I stopped reading your walls of texts a couple of posts in because every point you're repeating have been addressed and disproven earlier in the debate. The argument doesn't cease to be just because you ignore it and repeat yourself over and over...
| >>3b6107
And believing that Brazil beat racism 300 years ago and is now living a post-racial society is fucking crazy.
| >>770546 it didnt get disproven, it got counter argued which means it is still open for debate, and if you stoped reading you have no reason to keep whinning
>>770549 if you read the walls of text you would know that I dont believe brazil is a post racial society but the replies werent meant for you so if you dont read it is your problem
| >>770551
They got disproven. Period.
>>770551
You have made statements describing Brazil as a post racial-society more than ones in this thread. Ignoring statements, even your own, doesn't make them go away. You're fucking crazy, you know that right?
| I never said brazil was post racial, you project that because you interpreted the arguements that way, but all I was trying to say is that racism is not a big problem in brazil, racism not being a a big problem is not being post racial.
| Bolsonaro HAS done a lot. He's pardoned a record number of policemen charged with homicide. This should be of intrest to you because these killings often happened in poor communities. His mishandling of the pandemic got half a million people killed. Ever since his election the assaults of journalists and elected officials skyrocketed. Not to mention he's been doing everything he can to make sure his base is armed.
| https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/threats-violence-mark-pandemic-debate-bolsonaros-brazil-2021-06-23/
https://theintercept.com/2018/10/16/jair-bolsonaros-brazil-political-violence/
Some links to the articles I read
| Again, even if all he had were words, it's still bad. He's stirred violent, far right nationalist sentiment in the Brazilian people.
You're not going to like this one, but you're treating Bolsonaro the same as the world treated Hitler before he was chancellor. He was an authoritarian that nobody took coming up in a young democracy that nobody too.
I kmow there's other countries with tyrants, but we're talking about what's going on in Brazil. Something you seem hesitant to do.
| >>770452 That's a total leap in logic. The programs just weren't effective. We KNOW that racism exists in Brazil because of the data you keep ignoring. If you're born black in Brazil, you're more likely to be born into poverty and all the misery that it entails. That IS racism. Chances are, your dad was poor BECAUSE he is black. It's great that they made it out, but that isn't really relevant. Many black people die before they get that chance, at twice the rate of white people.
| Race and class are clearly connected. It's not an either or situation. The inequality IS the discrimination.
And I'm not convinced that directly racial discrimination has dissolved in Brazil. Your president race baits all the time and denied the Brazilian slave trade.
You still haven't show how any of my reasoning is flawed.
| *an authoritarian that nobody took seriously(typo in the Hitler/Bolsonaro bit)
| And it's only been 133 years. That's a handful of generations. We're more removed from the invention of electricity than we are the abolishment of slavery in Brazil. In fact the favelas that many afro-Brazilian people live in were the areas that their families were moved into after slavery was abolished.
The racism of the past LIVES TODAY because nobody did anything about it.
| >gettin shot usually doesnt kill you unless its an untreated wound.
Yes. That's the point of the analogy. Slavery is an untreated gunshot wound in Brazil's leg, and it's been left to fester. The treatments have been minimal at best. You have a talent for ignoring the obvious.
| >>770459 The example I used has nothing to do with Obama's quality as a president, I'm not sure why you brought it up. I'm not an Obama supporter, but none of this is relevant to my argument.
The point was to illustrate that even one of the most powerful men in the world can experience racism if he's black. This is one of the reasons I'm skeptical of your claim that middle class black Brazilians experience NO racism.
| >>770479 Dealing with stereotypes is an aspect of being black in America, but that's not the only form of racism there is.
Like in Brazil, black people in America are more likely to be born into poverty, which comes with a set of harsh material circumstances as I'm sure you know. All because of old racial inequalities that remain unchecked.
Racism is more than calling someone a slur, or assuming things about them. If you walk leave this convo with anything, please let it be that.
| And dude, you're not one to talk about identity politics. You tried to leverage your identity several times because you thought it helped your arguments. You also basically said I had no grounds to speak on Brazilian race issues because I'm American.
By your logic, since I'm a black guy in America, I can say you have no right to talk about race issues over here.
And it's not people talking about racism doesn't create racism, it just draws attention to what's already there.
| >>770463 You use that term the same way McCarthy used "communist" during the cold war. You talk about indoctrination while you repeat a line manufactured by conservatives in America to vilify people talk about racism.
CRT doesn't teach a racial bias. It doesn't teach anything. It's not a doctrine, it's a lens of analysis. I've said this a few times and included a more thorough definition in this thread.
I've never seen someone describe it like you did without an agenda.
| >>770551 That's the thing. The counter-arguments got made, but you never responded to them, you just doubled down. We've been running in circles for 2 days and I've been waiting for you to put it all together. I think this is something you have to absorb on your own, so this is probably the last thing I'll say to you.
| I just want to say that I agree about poverty in Brazil. I agree that the politicians are corrupt. I agree that life is terrible if you're poor. I agree that class mobility is terrible.
But if you raised the quality of life in Brazil overnight, there would still be a gap between white and black people. The average GDP of a black person would still be half of a white person. The racism of the past exist live in the present, because nobody did anything about it.
| When want to improve a society, you have to do it along EVERY axis that hurts people.
When you don't even admit the problem, you leave the door open for people like >>c59882 to say whatever they want.
Brazil obviously has a problem with race. The first step to solving it is being able to acknowledge and discuss it.
And to try and bring this back around to the subject of CRT, acknowledging problems is something we're gonna struggle with if we vilify thinking about them.
| racism is based!
| >>770560 >>770561 >>770562 bolsonaro doest have the charisma, the strong base, the alliance with other nations, the boldness and an ideology, comparing him to hitler is either paranoia or unneducated exageration.
Pardining criminals is the first thing every politician does, mishandling the pandemic is horrbile but then I ask to myself, if I was him, what would I do? We never had such a thing before, there are many thing we cant afford to do, the people are panicking, etc.
| And bolsonaro can suck my dick, he is not good not even ok, he is bad but Im not supporting radical haters who think any bad dialogue is a possible start to the next nazi country, always ask yourself, should we really just assume the worst in anyone who deoesnt follow our rules?
| >>770563 but not saying there is no racism you are projcting the idea that Im saying brazil is post racial so hard that your post are the same phrase
>If you're born black in Brazil, you're more likely to be born into poverty
Brazil is not post racial, racims is just not a big problem because many racial problems can be solved by dealing with class problems once we solve class we can talk about racism
| >>770564 but Im not saying it dissolved is saying it mostly transformed it we had a problem that lead to another problem and now the sollution is not the same that could be applyed if it was 80 yrs ago.
Your logic isnt flawed, I get where you are comming from, It just doesnt apply to the modern world reparations would have more chances of working if it was 1900s
| Because back then black people could have still stablished some roots in higher classes and not have to build segregated communities. Currently they are too stablished in their communities the inflation and unfriendly market make so reparations would either not be effective or would have no value at all and some people are just content with what they have or dont have the neccesary education to know what to do
| This is why Im saying we need to give open markets to occupy, better education to all classes, makes living costs less expenssive and give them courage and hope to get out because hearing you are poor because you are black doesnt give hope it destroys you mental health, so after we give them a base to stablish I wanna treat the deeper wound, cuz trying to do it now will just make em sink back.
Do you understand where Im comming from now?
| >>770566 well Im assuming you have read>>770608 >>770611 >>770613 togheter to understand what Im saying
>>770567 as for the bulled analogy, look, you dont tread an untreated bulled shot the same as a fresh bullet shot, I wanna treat the wound as if it was left untreaded and developed into other infections worse than the bulled itself, you are just trying to threat the bulled without healing the patient first which goes south in most cases.
| >>770568 I experienced racism for sure, but its so far and in between that I dont feel the world is trying to oppress me, bullying and not liking what is popular caused me more harm and stress than being black, my mom being a shy woman caused her more stress than being black, my aunt being overwheigt caused her more stress then being black.
We do suffer but we have bigger problems an insult or 2 for race is just another insult or 2
| black oppress themselves by being black
| So black facing racism despite class is not really something new its just that unless its something more harmful than insults we dont care and even insults are not common
>>770569 the steriotypes are what we(latinos, hate that word too but it gives the context) see the most in murica, and I said that the problem with identity was being brought from the perspective of someone who doesnt live in the USA
| >>770570 Im saying I am black and brazilian because it gives me context, to show that I know my history and country, its to help you understand me.
And Im not saying you have no grounds, you have grounds, you posted articles and you seem to know a bit about history, I just think your arguements do not take the full situation in which we brazilians live and if you think you know enough then who am I to judge? A nobody.
| >>770571 >CRT doesn't teach a racial bias. It doesn't teach anything.
You havent read and thing if thats what you are saying, I said the same thing as you, but I made sure to highlight that CTR is being USED to doctrinate people, its not that it does it by itself its being USED to cause harm, its like a book, it makes us question stuff but some idiots are USING it to bonk people on the head, the book in not inherently bad or harmfull its jusy being used in a mallicious way.
| >>770573 Im responting to all the repplies but you are still under miscoceptions that I think brazil is post racil, that I think racism doesnt exist to middle class, that I think racism got dissolved. Those are all fake projections you are making and Im trying to show you that Im looking into the same issue as you are but with another perspective that goes beyond racism exist we need to stop it before everything.
| >>770574 >>770575 Im gonna assume you have read all of the above posts specially>>770608 >>770611 >>770613 and that you are not being under the misconceptions you I listed at>>770625
CTR with the current political tensions is not a good way to bring racial awareness to the public and another solution that is more firendly to the people should be implemented, that is my opinion.
| >But if you raised the quality of life in Brazil overnight, there would still be a gap between white and black people. The average GDP of a black person would still be half of a white person. The racism of the past exist live in the present, because nobody did anything about it.
I wanna talk about this in a bit more depth so READ ALL that is bellow before responding
| Qualito of life doesnt raise overnight it takes some yrs but I will assume you just said that to be enfatic, now, whioe the gap would still be there, the programs made to help black people would actually be way more effective because now they would have more chances to grow, more knowledge to compete fairly and a more firendly market to new ideas, brazilians are creative and have a lot of potential we need better conditions to let that potential develop
| If we had a better economy and living costs were lower the reparations would massively help, with better public education the people would know how to use those reparations and with a more firendly market using those reparations wouldnt be so risky and would massively boost the confidence in the people, the programs we both agree to be innefecttive would actually work in we had better conditions to apply them
| And because those poor black people would be way more connected with society and not so poor, they would face much less discrimination and would have a higher pressence and voice in society, which would help a lot in both classism and racism, not solve but it would make things much better, nobody cares for the voices of the poor, this is why we need to break the classism caused by the racism before dealing with the racism, give them a respected voice and base first.
| greatest posting quality in this thread tbh.
| >>3b6107 i think this is an agreeable sentiment but speaking as someone whos seen investment in certain communities you definitely see different subgroups develop, wealthy minorities being at odds with other poorer ones.
Where they are more interested in maintaining their status and have little to no understanding of poorer spaces, even wanting to distance themselves, so wealthy gatherings are more diverse but a large portion gets shafted.
Something to keep in mind.
| KILL YOURSELF THREAD
| Idek what CRT is tbh, anyone you ask tells you something completely different.
This thread is permanently archived
| Look g/u/rls, I and basically everyone in general knows that racism is bad. But am I the only one who thinks it's a REALLY bad idea to promote teaching this crap in schools? It's only going to make the newer generations hyperfocus more on race and then create an even further racial divide (not that our current societal situation is ideal)