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World's wealthiest 'at heart of climate problem'
| Its really funny how the elites tell us to use less cars and reduce conssumption but then proceed to use their private jets, buy massive lands, destroy our woods, and use huge amounts of water for their private pools and fancy gardens
| Its like "you need to use less cars and get clumped into buses and metros, drink less water, reduce shower time and wipe your ass with files to save thr world. Now lemme call the pilot for my private jet to europe where I will get my eco award and spend some months on my private water SPA park"
| Remember that these illuminati fucks usually steer giant companies that power huge percentages of market economies. It's not like they pollute because they continuously fly around the world in circles with their 80 jets.
| >>751786
What you say is true but the UN report seems to mostly focus on peoples lifestyles ie over-consumption of goods, traveling and living standards.
I think this link is a bit better than the BBC article I posted earlier btw. It mentions polluting industries in the medium to long-term goals part at the end of the article.
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/staff/newsandevents/?id=55142
| Wealth = Power = Responsibility
Capitalism => accumulation of wealth in few hands by privatizing profit while collectivizing losses = accumulation of power and responsibility by privatizing positive while collectivizing negative consequences.
Also: Power corrupts, total power corrupts totally.
It's as simple as it sounds, but unfortunately too many people rather believe in more complicated bullcrap that is way better advertised due to massive and efficient propaganda.
| >>752249
You are of course right. If we didn't have a system that creates super-wealthy people the climate wouldn't be in as bad of a shape as it is, and our species(and others) wouldn't be doomed.
>due to massive and efficient propaganda.
>>752255
is living proof of that. But it doesn't matter if the uneducated is on our side or theirs. Telling the richest people in the world they need to make changes to their lifestyles for the betterment of us all is a hard sell.
| I don't know what sytem we need to replace our old one but the Nordic model seems to be the best one yet.
| >>752266 its literally worse than what we have come up with somethig new or gtfo, Im tired of people saying communism is the only best option, if it really was the best most countries would be commuist or at least be communist like it was said on paper and not use power for opression and control(looks at china)
| >Commie pushing his shit and calling everyone who disagrees an indoctrinated retard
Yeah we've seen this shit before on danger/u/. Still consistently with this arrogant pseudo-intellectual faggot attitude.
| >>752268
>if it really was the best most countries would be commuist
There are many thought errors behind your statement:
1. The amount of countries isn't really a relevant number, since their population count varies so much.
2. What countries do you consider to be "communist" or "Socialist"?
The UDSSR? Jugoslavia? Rojava? The PRC? The DPRK? Nazi-Germany? The GDR? Cuba? Sweden? The EU? The USA? Those are very different countries and as well different opinions about their policy.
| 3. Communism isn't something that is achieved in one or a few countries.
4. Just because something was successful and became dominant/hegemonic until now it doesn't mean it's exclusively and forever "the best". Historical, technological and societal progresses are a thing.
| >>752268
>Im tired of people saying communism is the only best option
The Nordic model isn't communistic in the slightest. You should at least know this much if you have such strong "opinions" on political ideologies.
| >>752275
>arrogant
You got the yellow card:
Saying something isn't arrogant only because you don't like it.
>pseudo-intellectual
You got the orange card:
Saying something isn't pseudo-intellectual only because you don't understand it.
>faggot
You got the red card:
a) ones sexual orientation doesn't affect the argument
b) being gay isn't something bad
Congratulations: you disqualified yourself with less then 500 characters of pure bullshit.
| >>752291
Man, there are people these days who say/believe that the USA/democrats are communists and that big global operating capitalist tech companies and investors are all communists. And something with jews. No dumb conspiracy theory without fucking jews. Public transport and communities are all communists. Star Trek is communist. Even hitler and the "third reich" were all communists. Because they called them National *socialists* wuhuuuu communism everywhere.
| But the funny thing is: They type it all with modern communist technology. Who knows. For sure this board runs on a gnu/linux server (=communism) and your client devices were produced by communists (Made in the PCR).
Also "pirating" music, series and and movies is communism. Yes, pirates are basically communists. And pirates are cool. So communism is cool. There is no escape. Communism is everywhere!
| And to go back to the topic:
Climate change is just a conspiracy by evil satanist gay black trans feminists muslim communist urban hipster vegan hippies who want to stop the good brave patriotic honest hard working white heteronormative cis-man of the land to rule the world as intentioned by god himself.
| Sharing means caring. That's why left wing symphatisers are good at keeping controversial services online, like pirate sites and OSS services.
The Pirate Bay, the most censored website in the world, which was started by kids is still is up after almost two decades.
Right wing sites like parlor and gab etc have all the money around but no skills or mindset to keep them afloat. It's frankly embarrassing.
| The reason that right wing services like parler and gab et fail is because they're just whining bitches that have only one ideology: egotism.
| >>752302
>egotism
And that's the only common ground that the masses of deluded poor loosers can have with the worlds wealthiest - for the price of becoming their dumb feet-lickers.
| Another thread where uneducated right-wing bootlickers flees the scene faster than a burning cheeta with it's tail between its legs after getting totalled in a debate about their favorite subject. Never change /new/.
| >>752289
1 thats not the point
2 I literally said that no countries have implemented communism as it was meant to
3 its a good start and doesnt undermine anything I have said
4 just because something seems better on paper doesnt mean it is better on practice, implementation and mantainance
| >>752351
1) It is, if you believe in democratic principles and the ideal of peoples self-determination.
2) And yet there were (and are) massive qualitative differences - between "communist" countries and within them.
3) I don't understand. A start for what?
4) The same accounts for capitalism or "free market" as it often euphemistically described on the paper. Criticism on it is as justified as it's unwelcomed. The big problem is how it is dealt with even in "free" societies.
| Commies still arrogant faggots... but in real life communism works NOWHERE...
| You I met 2 communists on a farm once. I had been working there for 2 months before they showed up. It was a couple and they both looked, physically, very weak. Neither of them had any muscle to speak of. The guy had a long beard in what I suppose was a sad imitation of Marx, and the girl had shaved her head.
They didn't last 2 weeks.
| First of all I was forced to listen to their pseudo-intellectual bullshit when on resting time (only room that had wi-fi). Every so often one of them, usually the girl, would just pipe up and say some shit like "Anarchism is really not what people imagine" or some crap, and the guy would usually meekly agree.
Then after not more than 3 fucking days, the boss asked them to do some insignificant task and the girl basically crumbled away.
| Sure they often loudly said we are communists and some other garbage I couldn't care much about, but when it comes down to it, the "workers" weren't really capable of anything.
The girl would be prone to anxiety attacks, and the guy would be aggressive but since he was scrawny and kinda small it was just funny-sad.
So girl was having an anxiety attack on the ground when the boss returned. Ofc boss got mad. She probably chalked it up to the capitalist oppression (lol)
| Well, eventually they both said they're gonna leave and they did. Last time anyone heard of them they were down the road doing hitchhiking.
She also talked about themselves for a bit. You come to find out they were druggies for a long time and basically became homeless. They kept saying Germany is a terrible place to work but I know personally that Germany is really easy to get into a career.
Commies are like this. They talk shit but when it comes down to it they are nothing.
| All of them sounded exactly like you. They had grand ideas about how everything in society should be changed and replaced and politicized etc etc. How everyone was either their enemy or comrade and how the world was evil for hurting them. Now whenever I see commies talking grandiosely I cannot for one moment take them seriously.
Know that every one of us back on that farm pulled our weight. Except them.
At some point I was doing the workload of the whole farm by myself (2 days)
| Until someone else showed up.
I shut up and pulled my weight. It was tough and garbage and I dealt with it and came out stronger.
Commies cannot do this. Commies cling to a glorious ideal because they believe it will fix everything. Gommunisem fixes everything! It tells you who is your enemy and what you gotta believe. If your life sucks it's not you it's Das Kapital.
This is why commies are collectivists: they secretly want others to do shit for them because they just can't do it.
| So guys, remember this when a commie calls you something bad on the internet. Their opinion does not matter. They ideology, in this world, also does not matter. It has failed like commies fail, their idea doesn't work because they don't work. The world is ruled by capitalism for a reason. You are getting called names by an insignificant movement.
Just imagine a scrawny little fuck in a red shirt yelling at you.
| https://www.dailywire.com/news/study-weak-men-more-likely-be-socialists-amanda-prestigiacomo
https://www.vice.com/en/article/j5e3z7/gym-bros-more-likely-to-be-right-wing-assholes-science-confirms
| Now that I think about it I said 2 weeks but they might have been 1 week, can't remember well sorry.
| >>752392
1 when was that brought up?
2 again, I literally complained about this so whats your point ?
3 if you wanna implement something(like a new system for society) you gotta start small even if its wasnt planned to be small(which is a massive flaw) you have to start somewhere because the world wont change just to fit you view
4 when was free market brought up? Did you just assume I was into some shit idea of having 100% full on free market? Even I know that woudnt work
| Why are you even assuming Im a capitalism fan? Are you so stuck up that every time someone says capitalism>commuism, you just assume they are some right wing extreme? Whats with that projecting my man? Not all right wingers dislike communism, not all leftists like communism and centrists usually dont like communism, and there people all over the specrtum so think about who you are talking with if you wanna actually discuss something
| >>752436
No response but a little quip. Once again. I'm not even fazed, it's because I just don't value your opinion.
| The small reply you posted can be summed up like this:
Massive cope.
| >>752441
You don't even understand my opinion considering that you believe Scandinavia to be communistic...
Or that somehow a thread about the 1% being behind a majority or our climate problem is a good place for you to go on emotional anti-communistic rants.
No one with a healthy mind does this^
>I'm not even fazed
If it didn't faze you you wouldn't have bothered to respond. But yet you did, because you take the bait 100% of the time.
100% of the time.
| >>752492
Now you invented the fact that I believe Skandinavia to be communist. Dreamy world it must be.
No, I am not fazed, commie. And yet I reply to you. Funny how people don't all obey your logic, eh? News to a commie. What do you think of my story? You're probably scrawny in real life too. Commies are. 100% of the time.
| >>752413
>The world is ruled by capitalism for a reason.
Yeah. Because thanks to industrialization capital became the more important production factor than land, which was the previous feudal reign based on.
At some point communism will also rule the world for a reason. And there is nothing you can do, except delay the unavoidable or sacrifice the planet and humanity only because you persist believing in your dysfunctional capitalist dogmas.
| >>662c40
The neanderthalers were also physically superior to homo sapiens. Didn't help them. You really underestimate the effect of intellect and technology have. You also overestimate individual power while underestimating the power of collaboration.
| >>752438
1) What I try to explain you is that the number of countries is hardly a helpful variable for the kind of statement that you made.
2) My point is that the failure of very diverse communist experiments also has very diverse causes. It is intellectually very dishonest to derive from it the impossibility of communism in practice or it's incorrectness in theory.
| >>752438
3) You misunderstood. It's not about changing the world to fit certain views. It's also not about changing a "society system". It's about regulating, reforming or revolutionizing the current *economical* system in order to dethrone capitalists as a ruling class and give power to the people. These are not the minor cosmetic changes you probably think about - they are fundamental and only work in larger scales and under specific circumstances and conditions.
| >>752500
Remain a useless tool in a system that only "works" by ignoring basic ethics and logics. Just continue buckling to the powerful while beating down the powerless and become an existence that is clearly judged to have been on the wrong side in the future.
| >>752508
You are right. Like most people alone on my I'm weak. But there is the one thing you don't understand that makes us strong: Solidarity.
| >>752510
I'm pretty sure the two scrawny fucks were having a lot of solidarity with each other when they were on the side of the road, after having been so pathetically weak they couldn't work real work for a couple of days.
This is you. You are a communist. You are inherently weak. You yourself are incapable of doing anything by yourself. It's a common occurrence.
| Commies are weak collectivists, they are weak because they are collectivists and collectivists because they are weak.
| >>752512 >>752513
Individualism is an illusion. Humans are social and collective beings. Unfortunately the current economic system gives all power to unsocial sociopathic schemers. But their reign will be over soon. Their dumb horde of deluded fascist bullies won't save them. Their power is as irrational as the power of god chosen "nobles" and "clerics". It stops to work as soon enough people understand. They will, because at some point the contradictions aren't bearable anymore.
| >>752512 >>752513
Your kind will either understand it too, or start cannibalizing each other and vanish. You are just pathetic.
| >Or that somehow a thread about the 1% being behind a majority or our climate problem is a good place for you to go on emotional anti-communistic rants.
>No one with a healthy mind does this^
Word.
| >>752528
>Individualism is an illusion
For a commie, yes. That's why I don't see them as human beings.
>>752529
I am pathetic? I am more than you, you are a weak and indoctrinated pseudo-intellectual. Interesting that the bug calls me pathetic. Your funeral will make good money to someone.
| I want to meet you in real life now. Maybe talk a bit. Would be fun
| Also
>deluded fascist bullies
Is someone getting b00llied? Maybe a physically weak socialist?
| Another thread where uneducated left-wing bootlickers flees the scene faster than a burning cheetah with it's tail between its legs after getting totaled in a debate about their favorite subject. Never change /new/.
| >>752565
Could you at least try to come up with your own or at least more original statements, instead monkeying around.
| Physically weak socialists
| >>752576
Can you explain what you mean exactly by "physically weak"?
Also can you be more precise about how this applies exclusively to "socialists"?
Isn't it rather capitalists that are physically weak, since they let others to the physical work for them?
And aren't people who live in the geopolitical heart of capitalism (USA) (in)famous for having massive and increasing issues with diseases caused by bad nutrition and drug abuse?
| >>752677
You refer to the (probably made up) experience report by >>662c40 ?
I don't see how his "personal experience" with two people is enough for such a general statement.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLi82e7A03U
| >>752679
Well, I'm no athlete but I wouldn't say that I look, feel or am weak. I would say my physical strength and condition are quite average. I never had a problem with that. Maybe it's due to I'm more of a collaborative and less competitive type.
Also I wouldn't refer to myself as a "socialist", but I really don't mind if others do so. It's not really an insult to me. I have no general problems with socialist ideas and most socialists I know are good people.
| >>752683
>wouldn't refer to myself as a "socialist"
>my physical strength and condition are quite average
Hmm. Are you a bait-and-switch commie? Or is it really that you're not weak and *coincidentally* not a socialist?
>>752684
Yuri Bezhmenov was a KGB defector who fled to Canada, you utter troon. Granted I didn't watch the precise video I linked but didn't feel like watching the 1 hour long version and exposition, even though it's immensely worth it. Gotta get the point across.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Bezmenov
Easy to find, buddy, cmon...
| “[T]he useful idiots, the leftists who are idealistically believing in the beauty of the Soviet socialist or Communist or whatever system, when they get disillusioned, they become the worst enemies. That’s why my KGB instructors specifically made the point: never bother with leftists. Forget about these political prostitutes.
| Aim higher. [...] They serve a purpose only at the stage of destabilization of a nation. For example, your leftists in the United States: all these professors and all these beautiful civil rights defenders. They are instrumental in the process of the subversion only to destabilize a nation. When their job is completed, they are not needed any more.
| They know too much. Some of them, when they get disillusioned, when they see that Marxist-Leninists come to power—obviously they get offended—they think that they will come to power. That will never happen, of course. They will be lined up against the wall and shot.”
- Soviet journalist for RIA Novosti and a former PGU KGB informant who defected to Canada
| >>752689
Yeah, i finished the video. Doesn't impress or concern me. Those "marxists/leninists" have no political power anywhere. Their reign basically ended when stalin took over the power in young USSR. Marxism/lenism had only a short and small political comeback after destalinisation or in some development countries. But they all lost soon to oppressive reactionary powers.
Those hippies students, academics and journalists don't really know, discuss or follow marx or lenins work.
| Cold war is over. Class struggle isn't.
| Also to me a "Nation" is nothing more than a political institution. If people identify themselves with it and get "demoralized" when they realize their nation is not so great they always believed, it's their own fault.
| >>752699
"Most of the American politicians, media, and educational system train another generation of people who think they are living at the peacetime. False. United States is in a state of war; undeclared, total war against the basic principles and foundations of this system. And the initiator of this war is not Comrade Andropov of course - it's the system. However, ridiculous it may sound, [it is] the world Communist system, or the world Communist conspiracy."
| "Whether I scare some people or not, I don't give a hoot. If you're not scared by now, nothing can scare you."
| >>752701
It's a great brainwashing process which goes very slow and is divided into four basic stages. The first one being "demoralization". It takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years required to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy exposed to the ideology of [their] enemy.
| In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least three generation of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism; American patriotism....
| The result? The result you can see ... the people who graduated in the 60's, dropouts or half-baked intellectuals, are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, and educational systems. You are stuck with them. You can't get through to them. They are contaminated.
| They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern [alluding to Pavlov]. You cannot change their mind even if you expose them to authentic information. Even if you prove that white is white and black is black, you still can not change the basic perception and the logic of behavior.
| >>c9c2d5 Yeah, this video/interview contains typical material for "new-"right conspiracy theories. Some facts mixed up with some punchlines similar to fortune-cookie sayings.
While I personally find this interview interesting, it's could easily lead to stupid conclusions without knowing the historical and political context. It doesn't contribute much to current issues of human societies, since many statements are full of wrong and outdated implications and assumptions.
| The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already for the last 25 years. Actually, it's over fulfilled because demoralization now reaches such areas where not even Comrade Andropov and all his experts would even dream of such tremendous success. Most of it is done by Americans to Americans thanks to lack of moral standards.
| As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore. A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. ...he will refuse to believe it.... That's the tragedy of the situation of demoralization.
| >>752710
Bezmenov was born in 1939 in Mytishchi, near Moscow, to Russian parents. His father was a high ranking Soviet Army officer, later put in charge of inspecting Soviet troops in foreign countries, such as Mongolia and Cuba.[3] Bezmenov's father died in the 1970s. When Bezmenov was seventeen, he entered the Institute of Oriental Languages, a part of the Moscow State University which was under the direct control of the KGB and the Communist Party Central Committee.
| In addition to languages, he studied history, literature, and music, and became an expert on Indian culture. During his second year, Bezmenov sought to look like a person from India; his teachers encouraged this because graduates of the school were employed as diplomats, foreign journalists, or spies.[3]
| As a Soviet student, he was required to take compulsory military training in which he was taught how to play "strategic war games" using the maps of foreign countries, as well as how to interrogate prisoners of war.[3]
| Since his death, Bezmenov's "Soviet subversion model"[a] has been studied and interpreted by faculty and staff at the Joint Special Operations University (JSOU) to analyze historical events, including the decade-long Russian campaign that preceded the 2008 Russo-Georgian War.[16] His work has also been cited by senior director of UPenn's Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, and former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Dr. Michael Carpenter.
| [17][18] His lectures have also been used by Yale senior lecturer Asha Rangappa, to illustrate the concept of active measures in Russia's historical disinformation campaigns in the United States.[19]
On August 19, 2020, Bezmenov's 1984 interview discussing active measures was used in the worldwide teaser reveal of Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War, in addition to its use in the worldwide reveal on August 26.
| "The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. ...he will refuse to believe it."
| As already said, this whole "marxist/leninist" thingy already didn't apply anymore to reality when the interview was made. The people who supressed the communist reform movement that started in prague in the 60s weren't marxist/leninists.
Also this whole fear of "demoralization of the nation" by "communist propaganda/education" isn't really a matter of concern facing the status a nation as political institution has now compared to privately owned global operating companies.
| >>752718
Yeah, today this applies more to what happens in on so called "social" media platforms in the internet. Facts don't matter. Mob mentality and the exploitation of human psychology and emotionality (marketing, advertisments, propaganda, PR) is the relavant issue these days. No one there discusses about capital, labour, production means, property, profit rates but all about identity politics. Marxist/Leninists, the Soviet Union or the KGB never had an impact there.
| National consciousness, nationalism and patriotism are no help for todays problems. They were useful to get rid from more theocratical based feudal regents like god chosen nobles and clerics.
Class consciousness, internationalism and class struggle would be the best answer to todays problems of humanity. But here is the actual demoralization campaign that takes place, made by neoliberals, conservatives, religious fundamentalists and fascists in different constellations.
| Active measures (Russian: активные мероприятия, romanized: aktivnye meropriyatiya) is political warfare conducted by the Soviet or Russian government since the 1920s. It includes offensive programs such as disinformation, propaganda, deception, sabotage, destabilization and espionage. The programs were based on foreign policy priorities of the Soviet Union.[1][2][3]
Active measures have continued in the post-Soviet era in Russia.[4][5]
| Any excuse is worth it to destabilize your enemy, including you, the useful leftist idiot in the equation.
Active measures have continued in the post-Soviet era in the Russian Federation and are in many ways based on Cold War schematics.[1]
| ED: Okay, so what do we do? What is your recommendation to the American people?
YURI: Well, the immediate thing that comes to mind is, of course, there must be a very strong national effort to educate people in the spirit of REAL patriotism, number one. Number two, to explain [to] them the real danger of socialist, communist, welfare state, Big Brother government....
| The moment at least part of [the] United States population is convinced that the danger is real, they have to FORCE their government... to stop aiding Communism.
| According to my opinion, and the opinions of many defectors of my caliber, only about 15% of time, money, and manpower is spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process which we call either ideological subversion, active measures, or psychological warfare.
| What it basically means is: to change the perception of reality of every American that despite of the abundance of information no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interest of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country.
| But why am I even trying?
In other words [for] these people the process of demoralization is complete and irreversible. To rid society of these people you need another 15 or 20 years to educate a new generation of patriotically minded and common sense people who would be acting in favor and in the interests of United States society.
| Leninism is international weakness to outside aggressors. The idea is to destroy a nation's culture.
If you take away their culture you take away their will to fight.
And you can crush them.
| >>752735
> their families
> their community
Those things erodes thanks to the individualism that is possible and demanded in a capitalist society
> their country
owned by capitalists
| >>752740
The driving force of this war has very little to do with natural aspirations of people for better lives and greater freedoms. If at all, these aspirations are being used and taken advantage of by the manipulators and progenitors of the war. The real driving force of this war of aggression is IDEOLOGY — something you cannot eat, wear or store for a “rainy day”.
| An integral part of this war of ideology is IDEOLOGICAL SUBVERSION — the process of changing the perception of reality in the minds of millions of peoples all over the world. The late comrade Andropov, the former head of the Soviet KGB called this war of Communist aggression, “the final struggle for the MINDS and hearts of the people”.”
| >>752738
Leninism in the first place is the recipe to establish a socialist/communist government through revolution in a country which is technologically and societal not ready for it due to lack of industrialization, productions means, capitalists and bourgeoisie.
| >>752744
Sound's like the battle cry of the recently successful neo-fascist movments all over the world.
| "You can't get through to them. They are contaminated.
They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern."
| >>752744
I don't know what you have read from lenin, but I recommend to be careful. The military and secret service in the soviet union changed many of his writings, especially during the stalinist period. You also cannot trust into US-American sources or some Ex-KGB agents. It should be obvious why those are not reliable/trustworthy.
| >>752746
Well, do you even realize that you do exactly what you condemn others to? I sense the foul winds of double-standards in your behavior.
| You have grown up believing in an ideal that has supplanted your way of thinking. You do not define politics, politics has come to define you.
You must break from this cycle.
| >>752750
"international bolshevism" is a concept which only exists in anti-communists propaganda. The bolsheviks were a faction in revolutionary russias left. There is no global bolshevik conspiracy. "Bolshevism" is a propaganda term that was cultivated by the nazis. In the USSR no one identified himself as "bolshevist" after they took over power. Translated it only means "the majority", because the bolsheviki were the biggest faction.
| >>752755
International: >>752701
Bolshevism is communism, I don't make a difference.
We've had blood wars, we've had information wars, the war now is a war of culture.
If you do not break from the cycle you will remain a slave to politics forever. Your beliefs will be shaped by others, and your individualism will suffer.
| The Communist International (Comintern), also known as the Third International (1919–1943), was an international organization that advocated world communism. It was controlled by the Soviet Union.[1][2][3] The Comintern resolved at its Second Congress to "struggle by all available means, including armed force, for the overthrow of the international bourgeoisie and the creation of an international Soviet republic as a transition stage to the complete abolition of the state".[4]
| Bolshevism (from Bolshevik) is a revolutionary Marxist current of political thought and political regime associated with the formation of a rigidly centralized, cohesive and disciplined party of social revolution, focused on overthrowing the existing capitalist state system, seizing power and establishing the "dictatorship of the proletariat".[1][2]
| It originated at the beginning of the 20th century in Russia and was associated with the activities of the Bolshevik faction within the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party – and first of all, the founder of the faction, Vladimir Lenin. Remaining on the soil of Marxism, Bolshevism at the same time absorbed elements of the ideology and practice of the revolutionaries of the second half of the 19th century (Sergey Nechaev, Pyotr Tkachev, Nikolay Chernyshevsky)
| Bolshevism has existed as a current of political thought and as a political party since 1903.
— Vladimir Lenin. "Childhood Disease of "Leftism" in Communism" (Full Composition of Writings). 41 (Vladimir Lenin ed.): 6. [7] Text
| Interesting convo do be interesting to read
| You feel attacked when I criticize your beliefs. It's as if I criticize you.
But these beliefs are not yours, comrade. They were put there by someone. By this raging, chaotic world. You're not a source, you're a product. You're not a cause, you're a consequence. As am I.
It takes some degree of courage to admit this because without a belief you are lost. You can't take someone's worldview without replacing it with another.
You are not your politics.
| I know fully well that humanity's trying to get into my brain and shit some political nonsense in there once in a while. The real thing is being conscious of it and not falling victim to fabricated narratives. Being independent of that.
| The thing you know right now for sure is the truth of your own existence. Your direct environment. What good you can do to things that are directly around you. Beyond that, things start to get shifty, up to interpretation, and thus, up to exploitation.
| I will respect you so much if you are able to come to terms with your cultural corruption. Not joking! It takes quite some time to deprogram and you have doubts all throughout because you WANT to believe. Because you think you got it all figured out. Why "deprogram"? Isn't that just garbage talk to get you to admit defeat?
That's me in the beginning. When you let go of the world's attempts at manipulating you, you feel a world of freedom open to you, and your thoughts mature.
| I don't wanna treat you like you're a psych ward case because that's really the worst way to go about it.
If you are able to realize that all of the things you believe are manufactured, you can come back to yourself. You will be able to take a serious, but liberated look in the mirror, and come back home to yourself.
This re-evaluation takes a real deal of bold honesty. But know that the alternative is following empty principles designed to enslave you.
| Maybe you have doubts because you think I'm the enemy now. At least I expect that. That's why these kinds of beliefs feed on YOU. You get something to believe in, an explanation, something that makes you feel as if you've got it all figured out. You get an enemy, you get a mission, it feels energizing!
A lot of human beings NEED belief. Even without consciously realizing it. In my opinion you are such a person.
| Doesn't make you a retard, in fact I don't even think badly of you. I don't hate you but I hate what politics have done to you.
Once you have managed to shed these parasitic worldviews, you will finally be on a path to personal betterment.
| And if you still retain a strong sense of meaning and belief, use it! Make yourself a better person, and maybe then help others around you better themselves. This is probably a universal truth: make yourself better.
Physically, Morally, Intellectually.
If you don't like something, fight your way up the ladder and conquer! People can become lawyers to change laws, scientists to change lives, doctors to save them...
Something actually awaits you at the end of this path: fulfillment.
| But the first step will have to be to shed yourself from manufactured, parasitic worldviews, and look at yourself for real.
| >>752781
It probably is. But so is mental parasitism by politics.
Even if class was a real thing, communism is not the knight in shining armor.
Politics is just not my friend.
| >>752756
>Bolshevism is communism, I don't make a difference.
But you should, since there are differences that matter.
>>752757
I already knew that, and I don't see a problem until that point. The domminance of russian revolutionaries was quite reasonable at this point, since they managed to do, where people in other countries failed.
>>752758
Also this one isn't unknown to me.
Notice: "dictatorship" wasn't meant to be an actual dictatorship in todays understanding.
| If you want to put all that animosity into something, throw it at Citizens United, 2 party system and lobbying. I'd be right behind you. That trash is an actual enabler of illuminaughty fuckery, rich people even buy themselves politics in the USA.
But I will not and never follow you into bombastic politicized preaching of parasite worldviews.
>>752786
Few differences. Highly similar. Doesn't really matter.
You keep talking about fine political points that are up to interpretation.
| >>752758
The aspects of centralization and an "avant-garde", a revolutionary elite, was receptioned already debated very heavily back than by communists. Doubts about this way increased even more when stalin came into power and the ussr finally collapsed.
| Big picture: I barely care about communism, it's just a brain rot like many others.
| >>752788
Interesting,
"...Simply because the psychological shock when they will see in [the] future what the beautiful society of EQUALITY and social justice means in practice, obviously they will revolt. They will be very unhappy [and] frustrated people, and Marxist-Leninist regime does not tolerate these people"
Just a remark
| You keep coming back to politics-
Change YOURSELF first before you go change the world...
| >>752792
Again fortune cookie sayings? Couldn't it possibly be that this whole "change yourself first" stuff is just a modern variation of good old medieval religious opium that blames people for being sinners by birth, threatening them with hell and promise them heaven, dependent on how good they serve their "god chosen" regents?
| >>752792
I've done nothing wrong or immoral. Why should I "change"? I don't want to change myself to adapt into a society that is illogical and toxic to people. Wouldn't it be better to change that society to the better?
| >>752794
The opium here is communism. You take it because it gives you meaning. Without it you are lost.
| >>752795
You're not inherently wrong or immoral. If you don't strive to change yourself for the better, you are just stuck.
It's not about adapting to the evil society communism portrays to you. I'm not telling you to revolutionize yourself, but to stop being a slave to other movement's ambitions.
| >>752791
Well, it's very hard to find a common ground on what "equality and social justice" means. But that one is for sure: The successes of the russian communists had positive influence on the social politics in the capitalist world. Todays global hegemonic capitalism suffers from having no challenger anymore.
In bulgaria there is a saying:
- Everything the communists told you about communism was wrong. Unfortunately everything they told you about capitalism was true -
| Your "god chosen" regents are the ideologies, the -isms, the beliefs and parties and agendas of the parasitism in politics.
| >>752803
Sure, maybe, since competition and challenge breeds innovation in trying to out-do each other.
I look back at the tell-tale example of the DDR and the BRD. Today the economic inequalities are still present.
| >>752798
To me communism has a different meaning than to you. I distinguish between what historically occured and what was the original idea.
To me the critical analyis of capitalism by marx and engels seems quite reasonable. Communism to me is a possible solution to those issues. And at this point with communism I only mean putting the industrial productional means (=capital) under public democratic control. Not more and not less.
| >>752806
If only it was just that... You remain in communist culture, with a filtered goggles mindset...
Are your politics a fashion statement?
| >>752808
>Are your politics a fashion statement?
No. I don't do stuff or make statements just to feel good or to please other peoples expectations.
| >>752808
>communist culture
This isn't a thing to me. Communism is not about culture. It's about political economy.
| Sounds to me like this propaganda term of "cultural marxism", which is quite popular in the far-right. This also isn't a thing. The whole concept of "cultural marxism" is just made up by people who don't know what marx (and engels) wrote about at all.
| Understand that you are looking at the world through red glasses. Shed those glasses and understand that the world is too chaotic to package it in a generalizing worldview.
Understand that trying to impose an ideology on the world is a garbage idea, and that if you believe in something, start with yourself.
People don't want to be forced live according to your ideas.
>>752811
Once again, everyone who disagrees is a political enemy.
| Actual marxism is the application of hegels dialectics to political economy.
| >>752814
Well, that's your problem. You should care, because it matters. Probably it's you who is the ideologically dogmatic blockhead here, hiding behind a wall of random facts with twisted, biased and logically very questionable conclusions.
| >>752816
No, your ideas don't really matter to me. They should matter chiefly to yourself since they define who you are. And if you decide that anyone who doesn't buy into them is a dogmatic blockhead solely because they don't agree with you, that makes you a very unlikable person.
| It's obvious: you think that your precious -ism is the solution is going to fix the world. Like an apostle of sorts.
And I don't buy it. Deal with it!
| >>752812
>the world is too chaotic to package it in a generalizing worldview
You are the one who is generalizing things. To you bolshevism, communism, marxism is all the same red shit and you don't distinguish and only accept facts that confirm your anti-communist ideology.
If "the world" is chaotic or if there is an "higher order" is a philosophical, metaphysical question. I have no answer to that. But I really don't need it for my understandings of marx, capitalism and communism.
| >>752818
Your ideology criticism is infantile, as it is based on ideology itself and you don't recognize it.
| >>752820
No, you don't need anything else but what communism has prepared for your brain.
Here we see what I've been repeating all throughout.
You are politically indoctrinated.
"I am right"
"The world is wrong"
"I am trying to fix the world"
"Therefore anyone who disagrees with me is wrong"
...
We see it here >>752823 where you deem that anyone who doesn't believe in your stuff is inferior.
You have some kind of a prophet complex.
| >>752820
Also >But I really don't need it for my understandings
"The facts tell nothing to him, even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents and pictures. ...he will refuse to believe it.
You reject information that doesn't conform to your world view
| All I said was I don't buy your stuff and you called me an idiot.
Doesn't this make you think?
The rest of the world does not agree with you. How idiotic are they?
You call me a generaliser for pointing out that you generalize.
You're not a wumao, are you?
| I really want to believe that there's a chance for you, even if Bezhmenov says you're a lost cause. Ideologies rule this world, and you're a big part of the divide-and-conquer game. Strange?
| But fr, I gotta go now, I'm hungry as fuck. Remember what I told you!
And fuck politics!
| Marx in my opinion has a big flaw, which is that us vs them mentality that class struggle propagates, it creates people who only thing about 1 thing, taking down power, which on paper sounds good but in practice its delusional and the fact that communism is based on that already exposes how flawed it is as system to implement, people fixated on the idea to fight dont commune, they band up and destroy
| This is why the mob mentality and cancel culture is so rampant, and this is also why the right sees those people as communists. And there is the whole hipocrisy and double standarts in indentity politics, race and gender that is also causing a lot of trouble and bringing back race and gender segregation but from the left size all that for equality and bringing down the privileged
| They justify their actions with their politics because they embrace it and make it their identity which is just screwed up, I hate how these people keep calling others facist, nazis etc for just not agreeing on minor points, some are so crazy that they show genuine hate towards those who dont follow their mentality
| And this is why marxism class struggle as concept is so flawed it promotes hate against a group and makes so things loose meaning if there isnt a group to hate, just like any other movement that started mass killings and oppression
Marx was wrong at least what he left was wrong since he never completed his whole work, I wouldnt be surprised if his actual conclusion would actually call communism a mistake since he was really smart
| Oh and btw Im aware that yes elites and high class people are screwing us over, but the problem is that their jobs have a function in society, destroying the CONCEPT of elites or higher class as a whole is short sighted, greed, big ego and lack of self control and humility is the main source of most conflitcts, power is just tool, the brain that directs it is the problem so dont blame capilism for the shit in your lives
| >>752844
>that their jobs have a function in society
There are other and better ways to fulfill those functions.
>destroying the CONCEPT of elites or higher class as a whole is short sighted
fetishize and dogmatize those concepts isn't short sighted?
>greed, big ego and lack of self control and humility is the main source of most conflitcts
Only because we live in a society which allows to collectivize individual failures while privatizing success.
| And by society I mean the economical system/circumstances (namely: capitalism)
| >Marx in my opinion has a big flaw, which is that us vs them mentality that class struggle propagates
This is no propagation, this is an analysis. (Economical) Class based interest conflicts are a thing.
Also marx did not promote hate against capitalists or capitalism. He even acknowledged the role they had in overthrowing the old feudal orders.
| >taking down power
Read marx again. I think it was rather about redistributing power (over the production means). The power would be still there, but controlled more commonly than just by a few individuals. That's the difference.
| >which on paper sounds good but in practice its delusional
This only occurs if people don't understand what's on the paper in the first place or lost connection to reality. Just like you.
| >This is why the mob mentality and cancel culture is so rampant
This has nothing to do with marx at all. In the opposite: This is more a phenomenom typical for a capitalist society which is in a state of crisis. We already have been there. The social struggles and polarization you refer too is not pushed by marxists, communists or leninists, since they have no real political power anywhere. Those conflicts are useful to distract people from the major/core conflict of capitalism.
| The (capitalist) social media platforms worked as a perfect amplifier for highly emotionalized, illogical discussions about less relevant or even totally made up issues. Those platforms aim on exploiting peoples attention as a limited resource, aiming on their emotional and psychological weaknesses.
| And it's not "the left" or even "communists", "marxists" and "leninists" or "bolsheviks" who have their comeback their. No, it's fascists and neonazists, antisemites, racists and religious lunatics who mobilize masses and murderous terrorists with hate against minorities, immigrants, women, leftists and "wrongthinkers". It's the far-right which rises there. Wake up, you idiot!
| >>752842
>They...
It seems you're not free from stupid "me vs. them" patterns. You basically make exactly the shit you condemn others for.
| Again and again. You are so horribly locked in in your anti-leftist thinking and don't even recognize it.
| Instead of discussing about problems and their solutions all you do is trying to gain informational supremacy, just to define what words mean, so that it fits into your ideology. You don't accept other interpretations than yours, even if they are more original or context-sensitive than yours.
You just came up with random topics like "cancel culture" to create an enemy portrayal of evil conspiring communists who want to rule the world through dumb leftists.
| This is quite similar bullshit what classic nazist propaganda told people. Just without jews and races: Stupid and minor slavs under jewish leadership want to destroy all good and nice germanic people under the banner of "bolshevism".
Really. Old wine in new tubes. It was wrong back than and it still wrong today.
This is a major difference to Marx critical analysis on capitalism, which becomes more and more validated by reality with every day that passes.
| >>752844
>dont blame capilism for the shit in your lives
As long I can speak free, I will do exactly that. I have not the same emotional attachement or religious glorification to capitalism that you have. The more you try to delegitimize criticism on capitalism the more it becomes obvious that you are not free in thinking and how important this criticism is.
| I think we should give this a try:
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/project-cybersyn/
| >>752867 so capitalism is to blame for all problems in society, just like the devil, videogames, a music genre, a race, a gender etc.
| >>752864 Im not saying that Im saying there has been a lot of people that are taking the class struggle to an extreme, I didnt even debate meanings of any words, so pay more attentiin next time
| >>752861 that doesnt mean Im antagonizing them, unlike cetains people who like to call others facist or nazis just because they dont think orcs being evil is racist or burning police stations because one cop killend someone, people are doing and saying a lot of crazy shit just because they think they are fighting oppression when in reality they are just oppressing others under their ideals
| >>752859 yep, all those big media companies are pandering to what can be conssidered "left wing politics", good to know you are starting to notice that, thats is why the right calls them usefull idiots, they are just spreading the message and stablishing control but they themselves arent aware of it
| >>752858 the self proclaimed trained marxists blm founder wants to speak with you
>>752854 I know, its just that people used and are using class struggle to propagate stuff both under the name of marx and/or under the name of identity politics
Like its not hard to see it, they use the same points and go with the same actions, some them even straight up say thats the point
| Like Im tired of people thinking that their political ideology is the thing that will save society, its just like religion wars and this goes to both the left and the right, communism is worse than capitlism but people still like it, nazism is bad but some like it, religion doesnt make sense but they still like it, capitalism isnt perfect and needs to change but all people care about is trying to subtitute it with bs that already failed and cant think of something new
| So fuck marx, god, hitler, mussolini, stalin and other figures that changed history, time to move on from their ideals and make something new, marx is dead, he cant say anything more and he definetly isnt taking into account all the modern problems, stop pandering to his shit and wake up, screw this you say >>752864 but you still insist in those things Ive been reading this thread and tbh you are the one who is the stuck up here like a lot of people out there doint shit for ideals
| >>752877
All human relations are economical relations in the first place. So society is shaped by the economical circumstances. The shape and meaning of things like the devil, videogames, a music genre, a race, a gender etc. are all resulting the economical circumstances. The current economical circumstances are capitalist ones, which is per definition the private ownership of production means. Every other societal phenomenon is determined by it.
| Capitalist societies showed that they are able to solve issues. But it would be stupid to ignore that capitalism itself has some fundamental conceptual flaws.
All approaches to delegitmize capitalism criticism and alternative concepts will have the opposite effect, since the problems which are there aren't going to be solved. They will continue to increase. Even channeling them in superficial pseudo conflicts will stop working at some point.
| >>753383 >All human relations are economical relations in the first place.
And we already started wrong, need for meaning(relegion), enterteinment(videogames and music), gender have all existed long before capitalism or the concept of currency and economics existed, those were things that have always persisted in human nature no matter the type of society, class, race, enviorment etc. We always vigorously pursued those things independent of capitalism.
| >>753406
>But it would be stupid to ignore that capitalism itself has some fundamental conceptual flaws.
AND I DIDNT IGNORE IT if you actually stoped to read and think, like about what I said in >>752883 you would see what Im talking about, Im not excusing capitalism, Im saying that if we want change we shouldnt use outdated systems created by people who dont live or see the current struggles of society, communism is flawed and its not made for modern times so stop justifying it
| Also why is it that every communist or socialist only knows to complain about capitalism? Why is it that the only way they know how to sell their doctrine and to justify it is by complaning about the current one?
Because they dont have any good points that prove it is actually better than what we have and this is what pisses me off the most about people who keep insisting on those stupid outdated ideas, they cant make something of their own and can only preach about their dead god
| >>753406
>have all existed long before capitalism or the concept of currency and economics existed
Before capitalism was feudalism, before feudalism was hunters and gatherers and before that people lived just like animals without any of those things you mentioned. The neolithic, agricultural and industrial revolution were the three most important steps that caused the development of economy. The informational revolution probably is the next step, and capitalism is outdated.
| >>753415
>Because they dont have any good points that prove it is actually better than what we have
There is no guarantee that something different will be better. But there can't be something better without making something different. Simple logic.
| >>753409
>>communism is flawed and its not made for modern times so stop justifying it
Again you make no difference between the actual theory and historical practice.
Communism is the idea to unite workers all over the world and put industrial production means under their control democratically. The only "flaws" I see there, is that communists were way ahead of their time and they underestimated the flexibility and productivity of capitalism. But things have changed since then.
| Manage production means and organize economy centralized AND democratically is a matter of implementation and technology. Face it: The golden years of an socially tamed capitalism are over. Already when it became obvious that the soviets weren't what they wanted/believed/pretended to be and that they'll loose the geopolitical/economical competition, things have changed. The evidence that Marx and Engels critical analysis wasn't entirely wrong is very strong and increasing.
| >>753409
>the current struggles of society
The core idea of marx was that all struggles of society are class struggles and that those struggles are the driving force behind historical progress. This would also apply to current struggles. Seems pretty plausible to me. A lot more plausible than pseudo-scientific racist and religious theories which i find truly outdated and also useless. I refuse believe in supernatural powers or nihilistic views but in peoples potential to be great.
| >>753429 tribal humans lived by gathering what they could and were divided in functions, they didnt really have a private property, they still felt the need for meaning and religions, enterteinment with jokes, dances qnd even crafts, capitalism had no influence on that, and even before that, hominids and even modern apes have always expressed feelings of boredom and do things to entertein themselves, thats a thing that comes with intelligence, look at dolphins and orcas too
| Most criticism on marx communism and socialism only works on those stupid concepts. Humans are inherently bad, society is sick, there are superior and inferior beings that are destined to rule or to be ruled by god or nature. All this stuff. It's not the return of marx or communist ideas people should be afraid of. Those had and still have much evidence. It's the revival of ideas that have been believed to be burried forever after WW2 that is an actual concern.
| Dont try to lump the basic essence of intelligent species with economics, because one was invented and the other is inherent to us
| >>753444 this is what the radical right minorities say and they are minorities, normal people dont think like that, get a reality check
| >>753434 I did and I even said I think marx class struggle is flawed and I also complained on another post about the countries who are "communist" on paper, did you even bother to read my point or are you just assuming Im a far right pro capitalist despite me saying many times that capitalism has flaws?
| >>753443
Guess what marxist theorists calls this kind of societies: Ancient communism. Even thought this kind of societies were (and still are) often romantically idealized. The concept of private property wasn't entirely unknown to gatherers and hunters. It just wasn't that much powerful as agricultural and industrial production, that enables to create way more goods that can be consumed by the people needed to create them.
| >>753441 marx way of presenting class struggle is flawed, not all major events in history happened because of oppressors and oppressed, leaders with crazy high egos, princes with love affairs, tribes fighting for territory due to lack of reseources, incompetent leaders, wars for belief, etc, like what economical burst jerusalem would provide? They just did it because religion, people dont act just because money, people act on emotions or calculated decisions that benefit them
| >>753447
The nazis also started as a minority of obscure antisemitism conspiracy theorists. But dumb ideas based on lies, incomplete and distorted facts can gain very fast popularity if the pressure caused by economical issues and conflicts increases.
| >>753450 and during that time the human societies were small communities, one person didnt conssume a lot, there werent many precious known resources that revolutionized production, thats why they didnt NEED a lot of capital or even private property
| >>753449
Class struggle is an actual thing. The only flawed thing about marx theories and expectations is the lack of class consciousness and the ability of capitalism/capitalists to move their problems around the globe and provide people with opium even without religion.
| >>753455
I mean the flaw was that marx underestimated the impact and dimensions those effects could have.
| >>753453 same can be said about communists, socialist, anarchists, religion fanatics and look where we are, those people are still minorities
| >>753457
To lump those all together is a massive failure. Religious fanatics believe in supernatural beings that don't exist. Racists believe in master and slave races (which don't even exist). Economical classes exist. Interest conflicts between this classes exist. Those are REAL things and not made up.
| Even thought I don't like Anarchists.
| >>753455 >>753456 and thats already a huge flaw that, not being aware of the scale of your plan and even of what you are criticizing can cost the lives of many and bring a lot of problems that were not even considered, most great wars and conflicts were won/lost because of things like that
| >>753462
Fortunately times have changed, our technology has advanced and granted us opportunities we never had before.
And if you're not fighting at all, just because you're afraid to loose, you've already lost.
| >>753459 look at the end of the day they are all concepts created by humans and taken to an extreme, and also just like the made up pseudo science and religion, class struggle doesnt fully represent the history of humanity and doesnt explore the full scale of things nor takes into acount the emotional factors and resource problems in certains eras that did cause wars not for power but for necessity
| >>753463 >if you're not fighting at all, just because you're afraid to loose, you've already lost.
Is calling me a loser because I dont want to fight for YOUR cause specifically the best response ypu have for that?
Like I clealry said capitalism needs to change for something better, but all you are sying is that communism is the answer then when I say communism isnt you assume Im not fighting for anything, does your brain only works on capitlaism x communism?
| >>753464
Economical classes aren't really concept and they are not created intentionally by humans. They are the logical consequence of how the economy works, and they are measurable scientifically.
| Its just like I said, we need something new, everything nowadays is recycled, look at society, we recylce memes, reboot enterteinment, re compose music, we need NEW great thinkers, new people with revolutionary ideas, not just recycle or re adapt the same old disk there is only so much you can re use something before it loses effect
| >>753466
It's NOT my cause. It's OUR cause. You just refuse to understand it because you're an ideologically indoctrinated blockhead. I hope one day you'll understand.
| >>753468 by that logic, ecological nieches werent caused by differences in enviorments, they are just consequences of evolution.
If all humans were 100% equal the concept of value and economics wouldnt be needed, people have different ways of thinking, different tastes, abilitties, things they are good and bad at, so the natural tendency is hirearchy, nature has that, not everyone can make a billion dollar company or cure cancer
| >>753470
>we need something new
You cannot re-invent the wheel. There rarely was something entirely new, and it's getting more unlikely each time to have something new.
| I'm out for today. Have to do some evil communist stuff.
| >>753473 >OUR
You smoking? You really do only think of only capitalism x communism, dude people who agree with you are a minority, sure yall have been growing but still, not everyone wants what you want and YOUR fight is based soley on the concept of class struggle, it doesnt care for all the needs people have, if you cant cover for more needs than capilism your system is worse than capitalism, society works this way unless you violently shove it uppon us like terrorists
| >>753477 Im not a great thinker and after seeing that>>753476, you clearly arent one either, if you want to fight for something then fight for innovation, protest for the lack of originality or something, look at scientists they didnt develop new tech by isnsisting on trying to use rock, we had to find and research better materials
>>753478 worst way to leave a convo, might as well just leave without notice
| dude it's a troll, let it go
| >>753485 the "troll"(doesnt really matter if he was or wasnt one) already left so why are you saying this NOW?
| >>753482
>look at scientists
Your science and development are useless as long it's only purpose is to satisfy some peoples greed instead of all peoples needs. The political and economical organization of a society isn't a trivial issue that disappears through magical technology. Beside that capitalism criticism, especially as done by marx and engels, is also scientific work which hasn't become invalid only because the political work based on it historically failed.
| >>753496 most(not all, obviously) of our technology was made to fulfil the needs of humanity(in both individual and collective functions) in some way, shape or form, there really isnt much to dobate about this unless you want to say technology is somehow ONLY made for capitalists to get power which is a blatant propaganda as technology existed before economics or capital
| We discovered a way to make fire because we were cold just like we made washing machines because laundry, dishes and other works take too much of out time, science works for people needs independent of communism and capitalism, we need a new energy source? We find one, we are sick? We make new medicine? There is something we dont know? We keep trying to research it. That of course requires us to try to INOVATE, not preach about old information and how is good if try again
| You cant expect new n different things by using the same old strategy
| >>753505
Your argumentation lacks of logic here.
It doesn't matter what once existed or not. What matters it that TODAY capitalism and capitalists are a fact. And it's also a fact that they have much political power. And it's a fact their reign lacks of democratic legitimization. The conflict between individual and collective interests is also a fact. The private (re-)appropriation of scientific research and technological development is a fact too.
| >>753506
>That of course requires us to try to INOVATE, not preach about old information and how is good if try again
This is not exactly how technological development and research works in practice. It's way more about trying again and again, always changing a few parameters, but rarely abandon the whole concept or goal after every failure.
What do you think how many people crashed before the first plane could flew?
| >>753506
>We make new medicine
No. Big pharma companies make medicine. And they don't do it for the people but for their profit.
Also rebrand and repackage "old ideas" and sell them as something "new" and "innovative" is a pretty lucrative market. What we have now is people running in circles and wondering why they become tired without making progress. And all you accept is letting them run with different speed or change the direction, because leaving the circle is a "bad idea".
| >>753554 and I never said any of these thinks were fake, at most I said that some of those things dont relfect the bigger picture and that should be analysed with a less marxist view
>>753556 you just said what was in the red text but with extra steps so yes you are right
| >>753562 true, quite true if you OWN the company, ever tought about what the ones who actually do the research think? Look, researching requires founds, materials and persistence, the ones who do the research are people who want to help on something, if you have to blame someone for bad selling practices blame the activists and ceos who do a bad job(not all of them are evil), dont bkame the company as a whole.
| Its this persistence that "people only do things for money" that makes marxism flawed, its not a wrong view its but it is a close minded and very apathetic view of the world that doesnt convey the true complexity of the human mind. And again Im not saying capitalism is right or the best, MY POINT IS THAT COMMUNISM IS NOT THE BETTER SOLUTION AND THAT WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM THAT IS BASED ON MORE THAN 1 MODERN STRUGGLE OF SOCIETY
| Can you believe yourself if you witnessed this conversation in real life? I couldn't! We'd have 2 guys inserting themselves into someones else's conversation to screech about stuff they don't know anything about to 2 guys who responds coherently and articulacy to every argument present. Outside of a loony bin I wouldn't believe it.
| >>753573
It gets better. Imagine if one of the screeches puts on fake mustaches and glasses and pretends to be some other screecher every time he gets proven wrong. This is some comedy level shit.
| And expanding on what I said at >>753569 if ceos, bosses, supervisors, actvists and managers arent thing anymore, can a company with 10.000, 100.000 people work on these conditions, can a collective mass of people organize themselves to do all the, production, transportation and selling? Like I a 100 people local company its very possible but how do we acount for this modern globalized world? Its about those things that we need to talk about if communism was to be a the normal
| >>753576
>if ceos, bosses, supervisors, actvists and managers arent thing anymore, can a company with 10.000, 100.000 people work on these conditions
There exists companies without CEOs, bosses, supervisors and "activists", you know? They seem to be earning as much as any conventional company, at least according to the stock market.
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| The world’s wealthy must radically change their lifestyles to tackle climate change, a report says.
It says the world's wealthiest 1% produce double the combined carbon emissions of the poorest 50%, according to the UN.
The wealthiest 5% alone – the so-called “polluter elite” - contributed 37% of emissions growth between 1990 and 2015.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56723560