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fascist propaganda now blames antifa for storming capitol
| While there were a few antifa and blm in the place the far majority was indeed trump supporters, its not facist propaganda its just exagerated news
| They exaggerate that shit not because they belive it, its just to get clicks and stir more drama, journalism is all about that nowadays.
| >>98be3a
>its just exagerated news
Exaggeration is a typical element of conspiracy theories and propaganda. This combined with intentional false information and misinterpretation. And yes, there's also a profitable business about it.
Btw. calling those "trump supporters" and "their" media fascists isn't exaggeration at all. Bc that's simply what they are. Or at least what they have become thanks to the according propaganda. No one is born as an idiot asshole - not even fascists.
| >>729839 they are not facists, they have nothing to do with italy and germany, their ideals dont align with facism and the only thing that makes them facist is a popular steriotype propagated by exagerated news.
And during the BLM and AntiFa "mostly peaceful protests" they also said that there were right wing facists inciting violence so its just usual political bs thate they exagerate to make their side seem nicer
| Its more probable that both sides had undercover grifters.
In the end they all suck ass
| >>729841
According to your logic there are no socialists or communists in BLM and AntiFa because they have nothing to do with russia and china.
To me there are enough "ideals" Trump supporters share that align very well with fascism to call them fascist without without exaggerating. Most prominent their leader cult and believes in conspiracy theories (that have many parallels to classical antisemitism), blood and soil nationalism, racism, sexism, homophobia and paranoid red scare.
| >>729842
https://theconversation.com/horseshoe-theory-is-nonsense-the-far-right-and-far-left-have-little-in-common-77588
| >>730121 I love how that "article" calls moderate right, far right, centrists and even moderate left facists. Not biased at all and they try lump it all togheter while refusing to see eveything from the others perspective.
Look, if you wanna know what a facist really belives and acts uppon then I recomend researching about the man who created it. The actual facists are the big tech companies, journalists and crappy governments who act for themsleves and not the people.
| >fascist propaganda
you barely even know what fascism is you tweenie
| >>730132 things people forgot how they work:
Facism
Nazism
Biological sex
Politics
Economy
Socialism
Capitalism
Communism
Anarchism
War
Science
Viruses
Money
Value
Relationships
Gender
Sexuality
Racism
Health
Hobbies
Enterteinment
Logic
Violence
Monopolies
| Conservatives just cannot be trusted
| >>730129
>The actual facists are the big tech companies, journalists and crappy governments who act for themsleves and not the people.
Well, this applies to everyone who doesn't want to be a looser in a capitalist society.
| >>730132
Fascism the worst form of escalation "solving" the contradictions that are inherent to the capitalist system. Fascist ideas and movements grow as the social-economic gap between classes grow. It's the modern capitalist societies equivalent to religious fundamentalism in feudal societies. Fascism is all about maintaining the status quo by channeling revolutionary potential in a destructive, reactionary, misantropic and tortuous policy.
| >>730132
It is characterized by leader cult, militarism, strict hierachical organization, autocratism, elitism, nihilsm, misanthropy, esoterics, reactionism, conspiracy theories, particularism, opportunism and egoism
It also stands in a murderous fundamental opposition to democracy, liberalism, socialism, communism, anarchism, general anti-capitalism, universalism, pacifism, rationalism, humanism, internationalism
| >>730129
>if you wanna know what a facist really belives and acts uppon then I recomend researching about the man who created it.
I would absolutely not recommend to read one definition of one fascist to understand what fascism is. If you read multiple definitions by multiple "creators" of fascism, then you will soon understand that their definitions are useless because they are arbitrary, vague and even contradictional. This is part of fascist propaganda strategy.
| >>730129
>The actual facists are the big tech companies, journalists and crappy governments who act for themsleves and not the people.
Those aren't fascists but the bourgeoisie which include capitalists as well as their cultural and intelectual attachments/pet dogs during good times.
As soon the inner contradictions of capitalism need to be resolved (e.g. during an (economic) crisis) they release their fascist dogs to protect their property from a proletarian revolution.
| i mean, especially since the one criticizing it is a dogwhistling commie
| >>730194
And this is what fascists are: Dogs of the capitalist system who falsely believe being in opposition to "the elite" and "the system" without having the slightest clue what the actual elites and system are but instead mixing them up with the actual opposition to the actual system with random, pseudo-scientific and esoterical conspiracy theories.
| >>730196
I'm not criticizing it, I totally refuse it.
What you fascists don't understand is that criticism isn't something bad. There is constructive and necessary criticism. But not for fascism, since it's destructive and unnecessary from the core.
| >>730199
but i'm the one who criticized the bullshit idea that the capitol was stormed by fascists and now you're flooding the thread with your commie replies...
| if you think that fascism just means people that don't agree with your crap then you have no idea what fascism is... i bet this 'other side' probably thinks >>730197 about you...
| let's face it... you probably made this thread to bait for replies or shape the narrative... now you're dogging on people who don't agree with you in the comments because you're a hypocrite... you barely know what fascism is outside of what the main antifag narrative is, and so you think you're on some noble cause BS and fighting the terrible evil in the world. the ones who stormed the capitol were mostly trumpers and activists, i didn't see uncle benito there ~
| it's pretty sad when you don't define politics anymore and politics end up defining you.
i think we can talk about indoctrination, you're the indoctrinated calling out about other indoctrinated people, which are just the other side of the coin of political BS.. not much difference between you and a trumper.
| well, i suggest this: i'm leaving this thread cause it sucks and should be pruned, and you should probably just go back to twitter.
| >>730202
>if you think that fascism just means people that don't agree with your crap
I don't think so. There still are liberals, anarchists, socialists and conservatives who don't agree on "my crap". They are no fascists, even thought especially conservatives historically allied with them. I have no problems debating with them and agreeing on compromises. But such a thing isn't possible with fascists.
| >>730208
okay, i'll let you have this one but i seriously gotta go before i get tainted with the toxic energy this thread has.
i mostly like Sir Oswald Mosley's ideas of fascism. i guess you could say in that sense i'l a fascist, mostly on economical terms. what about his ideas and mine makes it so i can't discuss stuff with you?
i'd answer the intolerant left. will your answer be the intolerant right?
i say you know nothing about fascism because you say it's a capitalist thing.
| >>730207
yeah go back to 4chan, where no one knows if you are a troll or a fascist. Or go to parler or any other echo chamber sponsored by wicked millionaires living in the past. Go back to your place where fascists are among themselves circle jerking to conspiracy theories about global communist-jew-muslim-gay elites that lurk behind joe biden with the ultimate goal to rout out old white men by eating their children (which also gives them eternal live).
| >>730216
ah, i see. so much for tolerance. I have no problems debating with you and agreeing on compromises. But such a thing isn't possible with commie faggots.
| it's really interesting how nowadays actual fascists are more libertarian than the regressive hateful left.
| >>730215
>i mostly like Sir Oswald Mosley's ideas of fascism
Yeah that's what I meant with the arbitrariness of fascism.
| >>730219
>i mostly like Karl marx's ideas of socialism
Yeah that's what I meant with the arbitrariness of fascism.
| well, it's a typo, but you get the point
| >>730220
Karl Marx (and Engels, you never should forget about fucking Engels) "ideas of socialism" have actually a name which also describes the movement and a society ideal: communism. The last reading is pretty vague, which is with no doubt an elemental weakspot. But their contribution to socialism is a scientific analysis on the capitalist system, which have no equivalent in conservative or fascist theories.
| >>730218
>it's really interesting how nowadays actual fascists are more libertarian than the regressive hateful left.
There is a subset of fascists that consist of libertarians who are fanatical zealots of capitalism that don't accept any criticism to or debate about their religion.
Fascists are not a homogenous mass, which is possible thanks to the arbitrariness of fascist theories. It's different people with different stupid/bad ideas.
| >>ca66eb
it's so hypocritical when everything you say can be applied to the left and the antifags, have some introspective
| >>730215
>i say you know nothing about fascism because you say it's a capitalist thing
It's an anti-anti-capitalist thing, which makes it a capitalist thing for me. Some fascist theories contain anti-capitalist tunes, but only selectively like antisemitism. They don't see capitalism as the problem itself, they believe only that "certain capitalists" are evil because of inferior ethnical/racial quality or evil intentions. This is also why fascism plays well along with antisemitism.
| Facism leans closer to socialism, and it very much benefits an elite.
Big tech companies that have ties with governments and control information, revenue and popularity while being backed up by people who belive that they are fighting racism, facism and other isms, this is the perfect set up for an oppressive control that only benefits an especif group while diving the people in useful idiots and tired terrorists.
| >>730231
1. I prefer hypocrites over nihilistic idiots who don't even know or care what's right or wrong.
2. It's not hypocritical as there are important differences between "leftists" and "fascists". Those terms don't describe corresponding entities to begin with.
Also how do you think is throwing in homophobe terms being useful in this discussion?
| This whole thing is bullshit fomented by the midia to divide the people, give more control to companies and government while also makin sure people are too distracted fighting themselves to not notice or even approve the crap they wanna push on people.
Trump supporters are not facists despite what the midia tells you, they just wanna stop this bullshite and they belive trump can stop it, wich isnt true cuz trump is just trump
| >>730239
even though the idea is that that elite is corrupt and useless and should be replaced?
Internationales Judentum?
are you talking about the big tech companies that promote fag parades and go on witch hunts against perceived political incorrectness? those that censor certain opinions, like conservatives, etc...
| >>730239
>Facism leans closer to socialism, and it very much benefits an elite.
Yeah, that's why socialists are a primary targets to be locked in and murdered by fascist terror.
>Big tech companies that have ties with governments and control information, revenue and popularity
...are nothing but a natural result of capitalism.
| >>730241
yes yes yes
>>730240
of course you'd like hypocrites since you are one. you half-admitting this invalidates any statement you make so i really can't take you seriously.
i don't lie to myself.
i have no sympathy for antifags. you wanna police my speech now?
| >>730240 1 dont be surprised when the hipocrates decide that you too are the problem, they dont have standarts so will do anything to get what they want
2 facism is just the italian version of socialism despite what academics claim, history shows that facists are left leaning
| >>730243
>Big tech companies that have ties with governments and control information, revenue and popularity
... are nothing but the product of technocratic corruption abusing the system, but commies seem to think otherwise.
>>730243
not an argument
| >>730239
>while being backed up by people who belive that they are fighting racism, facism and other isms
This is just not true. Most people who fight racism and fascism are against those companies. They just aren't visible in the capitalist media landscape.
| >>730239
>this is the perfect set up for an oppressive control that only benefits an especif group while diving the people in useful idiots and tired terrorists.
The corporate appropriation of antiracism and antifascism doesn't make fascism and racism good things.
| >>730247 we need digital anti trust laws and messurements, big tech monopolies grew too big, they control, information, who gets money and wich sites become polular
| >>730249
a comically unbelievable opinion
>>730250
notice how the original poster was talking matter-of-factly in an objective manner and you instead resort to throwing in your emotionally influenced and highly subjective good-versus-wrong childisms
| >>730247
>but commies seem to think otherwise.
Which doesn't seem that much detached from reality compared to what fascist movements propagate.
| >>730251
yup. i say it as a national socialist: big companies are a cancer and they'll feed and feed until the whole thing bursts. they'll exploit whatever system to get to their ends, even our own minds.
that's what i mean when i say the system is sick like a cancer, people get rich kicking balls around.
| >>730249 if they didnt support them, they wouldnt support the bans and cesorship of conservatives, and these companies wouldnt pander to their ideology
>>730250 because these companies work with anti facism and racism, the people who are against these companies arw branded as against the anti groups by the companies and the midia and you fell for that bullshit.
| >>730253
i'd like to add that you probably don't have a clue what fascist economics look like. and have you heard of Bifsteck Nazis?
| >>730252
>a comically unbelievable opinion
It's your fascist "jewish bolshevism" reloaded theories that are comically unbelievable. In case you don't know what jewish bolshevism is: It was putting together communists and capitalists as a part of a jewish conspiracy in nazi propaganda. Nazism is one subset of fascism.
| >>730258
oh so now i have jewish bolshevism reloaded theories? i wonder why AIPAC exists. or why 50% of the US senators have israeli passports. or why jews are top drivers of US. inforomational production, including hollywood and big media channels.
but i'm not too extreme on antisemitism - even though i'm vehemently antizionist. you're a patronizing bitch but i'll put faith in you that you know what that is.
you jumped on a distant wagon grasping at straws and assumptions...
| so, tell me about Bifteck Nazis...
| >>730256
In which way do they support them?
>>730257
Fascist economics can look very different. They can be nearly everything, except sustainable and humanistic. In the end they always serve the cause to save capitalists asses from communist revolutionaries - even if there are none.
| >>730261
i hope you're not implying that communism is susstainable instead, even though it would be pretty funny.
also, i counted. the post about so-called 'jewish bolshevism' was a full SIXTEEN posts above your >>730258 response! wow new record man!
| >>730259
Also there are logical historical explanations for the tendencies you described in a massively exaggerated way.
Also a major thought error in any fascist conspiracy theories: The permanent confusion between causality and correlation.
| >>730263
funny how to become a citizen of israel you need to do DNA testing. have you seen the recent manifestations in the streets off israel where jewish citizens where shouting "kill them all" referring to palestinians? the new settlement policies aren't xenophobic?
and i'm obviously an ethnonationalist since i don't want human races to be destroyed. i don't care much about jews as long as they stay in israel and behave, hope that's simple enough to brain.
| >>730265
>i hope you're not implying that communism is susstainable instead, even though it would be pretty funny.
Theoretically it is. And in reality it lasted longer than most fascist regimes. Even thought it's highly debatable how "communist" those regimes were.
| >>730269
well if you unironically believe in communism there really is no saving you. everything is 'theoretical' until it hits the fucking dance floor.
| >>730270
maybe not, but the strategy has always been to shut our ears and act like nothing's happening, like for USS Liberty.
| >>730265
Consistency matters. And the longer fascists talk about their beloved fascism the more the lack of consistency in their thought world shines through.
| those are the kinds of things the leftist corporate lapdogs are reluctant to discuss because it might actually change something
| >>730273
so the more a person talks about something the more she loves that thing and is deluded about it?
man that sounds retarded
| funny how we've been debating all this time and yet i thought it wasn't possible, funny how that works
| >>730271
Unlike fascism communism is no matter of beliefs. It's science. And science always is theoretical until it hits the fucking dance floor. And of course this can result in failures, but this doesn't make it useless.
| >>730277
it's a science that doesn't work... and looks like you still don't know about the economical aspect of fascism, and that's all right... you should read the 25 points manifesto of the NSDAP, maybe there are a few clues here and there about it.
| >>730274
It's funny how twisted your views are.
It's a historical fact that it always were fascists playing the actual capitalists lap dogs in order to protecting their property and the status quo of capitalism - and they always will be.
| i wonder what Stalin and his personality cult would have said about your lack of belief...
| also i'm quite happy about the states that fascism saved from communism during WW2. we all know communism left nothing but poverty, depressing societies and dysfunction in eastern Europe. i wonder where you can blame fascism for this, new mental gymnastics challenge.
| the economic split in Germany for example is still visible.
socialist East = poor, apitalist West = rich.
we were poor, because we were socialists.
| very globally, fascism is a rejection of dysfunctional and futureless communism, and the recognition that capitalism needs some serious fixing to be optimally productive. maybe that's why you think they were lapdogs for some reason, even though they were historically not.
well, it's a complicated world.
| >>730278
Yeah, invest into the military by making debts and speculate you could settle them by invading your racial inferior neighbors to get "lebensraum" and enslave them. By the way murder an important ethnical minority based on random racist criteria. If the nazis weren't antisemitic they probably would have won the war thanks to V2 missiles combined with nuclear warheads. Luckily you fascists are dumb as fuck, stumbling about your own thought errors.
| i'm spamming but i'll add that part of the reason why 'fascists' are often unwilling to debate is that it's much less acceptable nowadays to be a fascist in society, than, say, a communist. so people don't talk about it, they repress their own opinions, and in turn become defensive, and often they radicalize. we're wary and already expect a combative discussion when we bring up our beliefs. that's why.
| >>730286
there are many factors that can be blamed for the unfortunate and total failure of the war for the 3rd Reich, like Hitler splitting half an army to send it to stalingrad, or thinking stalingrad was important at all, or involving Italy in the war, or barely communicating to Japan, or not putting more pressure on Finland, or declaring war on the USA
but what you're talking about when talking about the war is historical and concerns practical material events, not ideas.
| i'm not gonna stay stuck on WW2 or Hitler because these are things of the past and dwelling on the past is not too productive. it's always better to look forwards into the future and think how we can improve our conditions.
| the big problem Britain had with the 3rd Reich was not even that much political or ideological, but they resented Hitler's creation of a functional economic system not dependent on their capitalist own.
| >>730283
>we all know communism left nothing but poverty, depressing societies and dysfunction in eastern Europe.
I don't see how things have become better since they have capitalism. In the opposite.
For most countries "communism" was a massive advance on the long term, since they were backwarded and struggling feudal societies. Things only went wrong because communism was way ahead of it's time. The communists had to do the capitalists dirty work of industrialization.
| there is also nothing you can say about the NSDAP's leadership when you take into account the fact that with just Germany they somehow managed to conquer almost all of Europe in less than five years and almost conquer the entire world.
| >>730291
idiots that talked like you have never lived in the USSR.
communism will always be ahead of its time because it is in human nature to be selfish. nothing other than that.
also, the "ditry works of indutrialization" allowed the current standarts of life you have now, including your comfortable shitposting on your android phone.
man, you almost sound like North Korea trying to justify why they're lacking such an advance on the USA when Juche is supposed to be perfect...
| >>730291 if communist left europe in a state worse than capitalism, then capitalism is proven to be better
| >>730284
>the economic split in Germany for example is still visible.
socialist East = poor, apitalist West = rich.
It doesn't make a difference to most people if "their" part of the country has some millionaires more than the other. You also shouldn't forget how the west swallowed the eastern industry on cost of people who lived and worked there. Also most east germans I know have a very positive view on the GDR.
| Btw facism has nothing to do with antisemitism, thats a nazi thing
| anyways since you got the double standart of talking about particular thigs when talking about my beliefs and when i do the same you default to theoretical ideas... let me remind you that, whatever you may call it, the idea (mostly of corporate fascism) is that capitalism kinda works but it a weird and sick system that does not necessarily benefit what is good for society. communism tried the same thing but just fell flat on its ass because it was unrealistic. i don't even hate it.
| >>730297 yet you say that communism is better cuz in theory and blabla
Like I think you 2 lost the point of the conversation
| >>730295
and how many millionaires were there in the DDR? basically none because people were poor as shit boi.
and yes the West integrated the Eastern structures, on cost of the Western system, and it somehow didn't mess up evetything even though the east was poor as shit. goes to show how capitalism works better, hm?
and the Eastern Germans are NOSTALGIC my dude - they don't actually miss the Stasi or the people knocking on your door at 3AM or the constant propaganda at school...
| You guys lost the point of this conversation
| >>730307
we agree my dude
now i really gotta sleep
i encourage commie anon to research some more into fascism to come back with constructive arguments, and to try to suspend kneejerk denialism while doing so.
| things people forgot how they work:
Facism
Nazism
Biological sex
Politics
Economy
Socialism
Capitalism
Communism
Anarchism
War
Science
Viruses
Money
Value
Relationships
Gender
Sexuality
Racism
Health
Hobbies
Enterteinment
Logic
Violence
Monopolies
I still stand by this
| our conclusion can be that everyone is becoming an -ism and a -spectrum and radicalizing, distancing themselves from truth and going on idea hunts...
i recommend to listen to what Yuri Bezhmenov has to say and to try to be more humble in the future.
| >>730303
>people were poor as shit boi
They weren't that poor. At least not as poor as people who have to work in sweatshops to produce consumer goods that make idiots in western countries feel rich.
| >>730313 I mean, that seems to be the plan of the big tech, midia and government, separate us by manipulating info and pushing laws that benefit them while everyone is distracted.
| >>730303
>and yes the West integrated the Eastern structures, on cost of the Western system, and it somehow didn't mess up evetything even though the east was poor as shit. goes to show how capitalism works better, hm?
You are horribly misinformed about what actually happened during the german reunion.
| >>730314 they had to kill themselves to not starve, communism sucks period. And look into chaz if you still think it can work nowadays
| >>730303
>they don't actually miss the Stasi or the people knocking on your door at 3AM or the constant propaganda at school...
Because this simply wasn't the case for most people.
And today they voluntary give up their privacy to companies and authorities for convenience. What a progress. People who falsely believe to be free are more lost than people who know they aren't.
| let it go dude, try not to be too pussy triggered as if politics define your whole life. i already let it go. time to sleep and have good dreams, ok?
| thought: the fact that almost all of the ~200 nations on Earth are capitalist shows how much communism doesn't work.
and is also not taken seriously except soiboi apple fans. heh
| >>730325 you say that, yet you belive trump supporters are facists just because the elites of the capitalist system you dislike told you so
| You werent lying when you said you dont mind hipocrates
| >>730324
Ok, but this last one: The so called "Holodomor" did not occure in the GDR, there is a huge still ongoing controversy about the causes and the consequences and famine isn't entirely unknown to non-(or even anti-)communist regimes.
| >>730329
As I said: hypocrites at least care about what's right or wrong. It's better than assholes who don't even care about being assholes.
| >>730326
>thought: the fact that almost all of the ~200 nations on Earth are capitalist shows how much communism doesn't work.
*Sigh* I can't go to bed leaving this thought error uncommented.
There was a time where no nation on earth had planes. So according to your logic wouldn't this mean that there shouldn't be any planes flying arround now?
| >>730331 they dont, they have no standarts, they care about what benefits them, if ehat benefits them is good then they wont exclude the idea of censoring, killing or lying to do something good.
Fight racism by diferentiating people based on race
Fight facism by supporting the companies who support us, beliving the midia and thinking only one party of politicians is able to save the world
Misogeny is bad, so lets ragg on men while sayin that woman are better than men
| >>730332
It's no conspiracy theory. It's just a hot topic with many soviet and russian propaganda on the one and ukrainian nationalist and nazist propaganda on the other side and few really reliable sources. Fact is that there was a famine in ukraine during the era of stalinism - that had few to do with communist ideas. There are many factors that contributed to this famine and it's not clear which factors were the most important ones.
| >>730336
>planes are not proven to be inefficient and causing more trouble than it is worth it
You confuse efficiency with high productivity.
| >>730335
>They dont,
they do
>they have no standarts
they have:
>they care about what benefits them
>if ehat benefits them is good then they wont exclude the idea of censoring, killing or lying to do something good.
they could exclude such ideas, because they could see it as too risky being caught. This is what an hypocrite makes better than an open asshole: they can be controlled by societies norms. Fascist assholes don't care about those norms. They only know jungle law.
| >>730335
The thing is, what you describe has few to do with what actually happens in reality. I really hope for you that one day you manage to get out of this dream world you are in.
Talking about dream world: This is where I will definitively will go know.
| >>730340 easelymanipulated by the society norms of the capitalist world that you dislike, no wonder the politics is the way it is.
Also dumb of you to say that and still say that anti stuff movements are not being supported by elites, you just proved my point.
You are a hipocrate, you only use arguements that benefit you wich isnt worng but whenever its is proven to be bad for society you decide to complain about shit and how the world is like this and that.
| >>730341 tf are you talking about, you are the one saying shit like communist can work, communism is in theory better than capitalism. You live in the dream world not me.
| Yanks
| >>730349
There is a difference between having progressive futuristic society ideals and distorting things how they are and were. The last two things is typically for fascists: They all glorify a past which never existed while being pissed off by a current situation they don't understand.
| >>730349
If you really believe modern industrialized capitalist societies just suffer from jews, muslims, gender equality and gay marriage and the only thing to fix it is just to oppress or murder those people, then you truly are a helpless lost case. I'm sure one day your kind will die out. If you don't want people in the future pissing on your grave, then just quit this fascist stupidity. There is no future for fascism . At least no future worth living in. I believe in humanity.
| commi fags feel real safe behind a screen hundreds of miles away
| >>730502 since when does capitalism= misogeny, racism and othe problems? Are you crazy? These thing always existed even before capiatalism was thing, also, cut the bullshit already, saying that wont make communism better, it still sucks you like or not, capitalism is miles better and you cant disprove it, if you wanna change the world you have to create something better not rely on an old russian manifesto.
| I notice this pattern in anticommunist arguments where quite commonly ideas are either "old and failed" or "never tried and too risky." Funny, that.
| the USSR has failed. Cuba is a failure. Africa is void of any communism. Vietnam is a single party nobody. China isn't communist.
communism has failed.
and it will always fail.
| Communism industrialized Russia and China far faster than capitalism industrialized the USA. Russia abandoned it under pressure from the *only world power that wasn't destroyed by war.* It's not that simple, and even if it was, one implementation of an idea failing doesn't mean another couldn't succeed.
| >>730525 its easy to industrialize with corporate slave labor.
Oh wait I thought this was an only capitalism problem hur dur.
Go look at the conditions of china before talking this crap, the only one profiting there are the CCP and CEOs.
| >>730526 Have you ever been to China? And for that matter, have you ever taken the same critical eye to the United States? The only people who profiting there are CEOs, shareholders, and politicians who take bribes.
| >>730530
as opposed to china??? where they slave away people in factories that blacken the skies with fog? china became successful when they abandoned hard line communism, loot into the great leap forward. ALSO
a hundred million + deaths by communism!
where is all the wealth in Eastern Europe???
| >>730535 God, I'm tired of the hundred million deaths line. Please read a book other than the black book of communism. If you count deaths in capitalist countries by the same metrics, the death toll of capitalism is far higher.
| >>730537 go make an autonomous zone gather your people and see what happens, if it goes better than what we have count me in.
| >>730538
we all know it won't work because communism doesn't work and communists don't work either.
>>730537
your entire answer was basically "oh geez you're ignorant" and "what about dem guys over there???"
you never answer accusations directly and always try to slither out of them.
| ANSWER THE CLAIM: 100 MILLION deaths, civilians executed (maoist and stalinist purges) organized famines (great leap forward & kulak collectivizations) political and economical destruction (Eastern Europe, cuba, Tsar and his family murdered, torture, repressions, etc)
| the very fact that the bolshevists had to resort to such measures is that people did not accept communism, and later on they had to keep doing it because the biggest enemy of communism is freedom. you have to force people into the bullshit economical strategy because otherwise they want no part in it (see anti-communist Eastern European revolutions, see ROA, see Ukrainians regarding the 3rd Reich as liberators in the war, and of course freedom of expression in communist countries)
| >>730543
>100 MILLION deaths
Who knows how many deaths there would have been if the communists didn't stop the previous regimes from their stupid wars and oppression?
The 100 million deaths (which is the peak estimation by anticommunist propaganda) weren't all caused by communist revolutionaries directly. Also counter revolutionary, anticommunist forces contributed to it during civil wars and WW2.
| >>730543
Also regarding the great famine in ukraine it's not perfectly clear if it really was organized. Historical documents show that communist leaders actually were massively afraid that this famine could become a threat to their cause. Also the famine in china during the "great leap forward" wasn't intentional and had multiple factors contributing to it including natural catastrophes, the anticommunist engagement and the sino-soviet-split.
| >>730543
To kill the whole tsar family was a babaric act but seen as necessary to prevent a restauration of a russian monarchy.
Also the romanovs had enough time to improve the country, but (other than some other monarchs) they failed massively. Their policy didn't solve any problems and caused famines, peasants oppression, stupid wars and bourgeois oppression. They just harvested what they saw.
| >>730543
>economical destruction
>Eastern Europe
They weren't doing that bad in the post-stalinist era. Even westerns saw them as worthy competitors most of time.
>cuba
Yeah, cuba. I wonder how latin american socialist governments would do if they weren't massively opposed by US interventionism and sanctionism. We'll probably never know.
>torture, repressions
Those things are no specialty of communist regimes at all. In fact communists very often were victims of such measurements.
| >>730544
Do you even know the meaning of the word "bolshevism"? Back then there was massive support for any kind of socialist ideas by millions of people.
But as massive as the support was, the opposition to it was too. The old elites still possessed much political and economical power (that's what made them the elites) and they had powerful allies all over the world, who were afraid of communism being a threat to their power.
| >>730544
The gulag system for example wasn't invented by "the bolshevists" or even stalin himself. It was only a continuation of what the previous regime did to opposing people. See "Katorga". It's not really an argument for communism, but it's neither one against it. Because Marx and Engels, the founders of the communist movement never intended this kind of stuff.
| The most fundamental flaw of communist revolutions was that they were way ahead of their time were they occured. They always happend in agricultural, feudalistic and even colonized societies with nearly no industry. There was no struggle between a capitalist and working class but by a rising bourgeoisie against old colonialist and/or feudal elites and structures.
| Communism is all about collectivizing industrial production means. It was never meant to develop and modernize a feudal agricultural society or to liberate a colony. There actually were communists who knew this, like Lenin or Deng Xiaoping, who successfully introduced free market mechanisms to economy. People like Stalin or Mao weren't able to understand this. For them communism was just a guide to personal political power and humans were only resources - just like capitalists.
| And this is one of the biggest flaws of communism that already originates in the writings of marx and engels: While being based on an excellent analysis of the capitalist system, the description of how communism should be implemented is horribly vague and unprecice which is an invitation to be abused by autocratic elites and tyrants that are no better than those who communism was meant to oppose.
| >>731128 and this is why communism will never work, it was never properly made to be a functional system to begin with
| >>731141
Well, you could say the same about capitalism. Of course you could deny that there are any issues with the capitalist system and blame greedy jews or simmiliar stuff for every crisis that occurs. You could also argue "there is/was no true/pure capitalism". But all those arguments would apply much better to communism.
Do China and Vietnam prove that communism works or do they just prove that you cannot trust labels and capitalism goes pretty well along with autocracy?
| Are democracy and republicanism bad, because the "german DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC" aka GDR and the "DEMOCRATIC peoples REPUBLIC korea" aka DPRK were/are bad dictatorships?
Does it make the republican and democrat party in the USA secretly evil communists?
| >>f17480
That's a completely valid critique of Marx, but there were communists before and after Marx; many with better ideas more eloquently put.
For example, Bookchin* has a pretty clear vision of how to implement a new system, and it's been proven when they put it into practice in Rojava.
*(I know Bookchin would probably sperg out about the difference between a communist and a communalist, but they're definitely part of the same tradition.)
| >>731381 you are mixing up bad, if you go by that way then this just shows how poorly you analyse things, separate things into cases and see the patterns. Communism does not work in large scale. Capitalism does with flaws that can be prevented with laws and policing
| >>731387 how about we stop trying to create communist societies and try to create societies that actually function without basing it of an ideology or utopia?
We are 7 billion humans, we have a lot of problems and necessities, create a world for the people not for some utopia you read about
| >>731388
>Capitalism does with flaws that can be prevented with laws and policing
It doesn't because at some points capitalists influence on law and policing gets to big. Any criticism, even if it's constructive, any approach for regulation and stuff like this will be blamed as communists blasphemy. In many countries this already is the case - and even worse. General capitalism criticism gets lumped together in weird conspiracy theories.
| There is an increasing number of people who believe that general capitalism criticism is associated with a certain group of capitalists (who drink childrens blood for immortality) that seeks for world domination. Exactly the same shit already happened. As Marx already mentioned: All big historical events ocur twice. The first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce. And everything what's happening recently is nothing but a farce to me.
| >>731393 who is blaming communists for corruption? You talk as if everyone is blaming communists, do you even read news and comments? People are blaming the police, white supremacists, democrats, republicans, facists, blm etc, the closest thing to blaming communists we have is blaming china and even then not a lot of people belive its all chinas fault.
| >>731392
In the end it doesn't really matter which name we give a society that has solved those issues. What matters is that all people need equal possibilities to decide how we should use and distribute our resources. This means massive productive industrial property shouldn't be owned and controlled privately by a small group people. If you don't want to call this communism, I don't care. Maybe participatory democratic capitalism?
| >>731395 doesnt help that there has been cases of governments and big tech companies have been screwing up things while saying the same thing over and over again, if big institutions start to collude and acting simillarly then it is only plausible that they are trying to do something. I dont blame the people who think thag because there is some merit to it and it does explain a lot of stuff but at the same time there is no solid proof of an elite planning to take over the world
| >>731397
I'm working as big data analyst with focus on digital media, comparing classical ones with new ones - for over 10 years now. I know exactly that there are clear tendencies going into the direction I described.
| Also I'm jewish, which makes me extra concerned about such developments.
| >>731398 let me explain something, there is no value if all things are equal, there is no need to reach for more if there if everything is equally valuable, the universe is not equal so wanting a society where things have equal value is just utopic.
Why study to become a doctor or a scientist when you can just be a farmer?
There is no motivation to work hard, no need to progress, a lot of jobs will die or not have enough people on it
| >>731405
Who's talking about "all things"? I'm only talking about equal rights, equal chances and equal access. Not about equal individuals.
| >>731404 you are paranoic as hell, thats what you are, nazis wont take over the world, nazis arent even a thing anymore, the current problems we have are more centered arounf capitalism x communist, authority x freedom and etc.
There might be cases of facism happening but nazism is not a thing anymore. Mixing nazism and facism only shows how you are ignorant of whats happening
| >>731405
I didn't study because I want more money. I studied because understanding and improving things is satisfying. I don't care about more luxury as long I'm under a roof and have good food. Also money and wealth how they are distributed right now are totally detached from reality. They don't represent what people contribute to society at all.
| >>731406 if thats the case then why defend communism? We have human right, its not capitalism fault that nor every place of the world has human rights, and if you look at the world most countries that have mass attrocities and authoritarian laws that go agaisnt human rights are not capitalist.
| >>731409
>most countries that have mass attrocities and authoritarian laws that go agaisnt human rights are not capitalist.
Yeah, the typical cherry picking. It's not like capitalism isn't a global phenomenon and not isolated from country to country.
| >>731408 reseouce mangement is way more complex than "work 8 hours= house food wotah" the system is broken but nit because it is capitalist its because of things like greed, resource laundry, bad policing, tyranical actions and etc. All problems that go beyond capitalism and have existe even in the stone age
| >>731409
>We have human right
human rights are universal not locally. So no we have no human rights. All we have are some more and less privileged countries. But even in the privileged countries the human rights situation slowly is getting worse. It's like there is some kind of competition about the biggest profit and it's also like low human rights and environmental standards are good for profit.
| >>731411
>greed
Why are so many peoples lives determined by some peoples greed? Isn't that a systemic flaw?
| >>731413
So then give me a list of the countries in the world that have no capitalist system (=no private property of production means)
| >>731411
>stone age
The difference is that in stone age humans had no overkill capacities. It's not like we and our societies don't develop at all. We are just lagging behind an accelerating technological development.
| >>731412 Yes there is a direct correlation to low human right and profit, why do you think china is so rich? Why was USSR able to compete in the cold war? Why were religions so powerful in feudalism? Why do you think slavery was a thing?
Thinking that human rights are flawed because they are not in all countries is so ignorant, what do you want to do? Invade all countries destroy thwir governments, start wars and stablish human rights, equality and democracy? Oh wait...
| >>731415 almost none because letting people have and work for things is common sense even in nature, what I mean by non capitalist countries are countries that use non capitalist systems while still having private property
| >>731417
Well if privileged/democratical countries would stop supporting whacky tyrants and religious fundamentalists while systematically destroying liberating movements through sanctioning it would be a great start.
| >>731414 yep it is wrong, not cool at all, its a problem that has existed even since humanity was a thing, from before capitalism, and is something we will probably never tottaly solve but we should give our best to contain and police it
| >>731418
>what I mean by non capitalist countries are countries that use non capitalist systems while still having private property
Those are?
To me capitalism is the "private property of production means" per definintion...
Also communism to me isn't about abolishing private property in general.
| >>731420
From time to time things have to be set right. This also happened several times in human history. So why should it stop suddenly? Is questioning the reign of capitalist class already blasphemy to you? You think they are chosen by god or what?
| >>731419 yes you are right, we should stop using products made in china and start local production under the law of our own countries.
This is what a lot of people have been saying yet companies have been selling themselves and people have been buying their products because its cheaper. In order to solve this we need to exclude products that are made by inhumane means but oh that goes against free markets and exclude countries that have low human rights oh no. See how hard it is?
| The longer those problems aren't solved and continue increasing, the more brutal and less controllable things will get. And from what I've experienced lots of capitalists are as much detached from reality as their wealth. I wouldn't count on their insight that there is a better distribution of power and resources necessary.
| >>731425
I don't believe in free market. To me it's just jungles law. The big eat the small and immorality beats morality. Where should your laws come from? Any politician who's proclaiming such laws will be denounced as an extremist.
| There is only the rule of profit. This is what capitalism is about. Breaking law is actually part of any business calculation of big companies.
| Sorry I have to go now. Maybe I'll come back later. Cya.
| >>731424 not not really, my problem is when people dont question the right things, people balme capitalism for things that are nor directly related to capitalism, I keep saying that we should create new system that are not based of communism and capitalism but people seem to ignore it and think that I think capitlaism is a perfect system wich is just false. Question capitlism, question communism but questiin them for things that are caused by them, dont be ignorant.
| >>731428 >>731429 this is a very narrow minded, biased, pessimistic, ignorant and romanticized way to see capitalism and our current society.
If every time someone talks about capitalism, this is what goes trought you head then no wonders you act like you do. Try studying more sociology and philosophy, you seem to know history pretty well but you lack the ability to study and analyse the context of things and can only see them as black and white
| >>731407
>you are paranoic as hell, thats what you are, nazis wont take over the world, nazis arent even a thing anymore
Tell this the increasing number of people being murdered by neo-nazis in the last years.
I only exist because my grand parents were "paranoic" enough to leave germany back then. Even moderate conservative politicians and industrialists aknowledged and pampered hitler until they realized he was serious whit his stupid bullshit theories.
| You are paranoic not your grandparents
| >>731463
They are. There are neo-nazist parties, and active terrorists. Why do you close your eyes before it/try to trivialize it? Have you seen the hungarian government parties election campaign? Have you ever heard about the "NSU"? There are many members of popular alt-right movements that were active in neonazist organizations before. They are spreading blood and soil ideology and antisemitic conspiracy theories etc.
| In germany for example synagogues are permanently under police observation/protection because of it.
| You know this thread is about USA right?
| But yes you are right of course nazis still exist in smaller scales spreaded around in snaller no movements trully dies
| >>731471
Well, I haven't heard much of ancient (e.g. egypt, greeg, roman, etc.) pagan movements causing trouble for much more than 1000 years.
| >>731470
Globalization and even more the US claim to be world police for "western values", having their fingers in every single bullshit that happens in the world, make it hard to have an isolated view on all those things. Also Nazism is absolutely a thing within the US-american far-right, even if not commonly shared. It's very unlikely that far-right latin american christ fundamentalists and far-right jews share classic nazi ideology. They have their own variants.
| >>731474 they exist just in very small scales, look there is still people who think UK should rule the world
| >>731478
But they have no head of government and state leading a nuclear super power who rhetorically serves their tropes.
| Tbh I am more suprised how quickly you went from "right wingers are prosecuting communists" to "right wingers are prosecuting the jewish", you are using paranoic, conspiracy theory arguements just like the right wingers you complain about
You know that this goes beyond left and right, and thinking that one side is evil is short sighted and narrow minded right?
| i'm glad to triger antifags and make them seethe so hard just by saying i'm a nazi
| >>731492 you should really rethink your ways, it just foments division and willful ignorance. Doesnt help anything in the long run.
| >>731487
There are conspiracy theories and there are actual conspiracies. Political/economical elites conspiring against democracy and people through fascism was and still is a thing. Who do you think supported fascist and nazist movements because they shit their pants communists will come and take away their unjustified privileges? It's no conspiracy theory it's a historical fact that such a thing occurred many times.
| >>731487
Also anticommunist conspiracy theories are very often associated with antisemetic ones. The idea that jews created both - capitalism and communism - to rule the world (for whatever reason) originates from a right-winged movement that historically had the biggest impact: Nazism. They called it jewish-bolshevism. They even distinguished between good "german" and bad "jewish" capitalists. Because capitalism isn't bad you know, it's just (((certain people))) who are bad.
| >>731498
maybe, but that's exactly the kind of attitude the antifag savages have, so i just respond in kind
| As soon I hear people saying "we just need to remove the bad apples from power", I know they will start identifying those by the shape of their nose or something similar stupid.
| >>731832
this sounds like cognitive dissonance. everything that disagrees with you is BS, and everything that agrees with you is a well-known fact.
| Fascism happens to be an alliance between parts of the
- petit bourgoisie
- great capital
- old elites
They are united by deep anticommunism/antisocialism. They proclaim backwarded society ideals but partially mixed with some social revolutionary concepts. And they mix up fractional capitalism criticism with conspiracy theories. Liberal democracy is capitalism while it grows. Fascism is capitalism in times of crisis, which occur cyclic, while increasing every time.
| >>731837
No, what makes you think that? And why do you call me "nigga"? Do you lack of human affection?
| >>731841
that's the only way i can imagine your retardation to make sense. no sane person would think fascism is capitalism and not socialism, especially when Hitler went after the (jewish-owned) banks and interest rates that were flattening German economy, and after British and later US capitalist imperialists. it's typically a commie thing to call fascism capitalism because it's a propaganda stunt: "they're the same clique, the same old, i'm the only solution"... and it's *B*S*.
| but commies will always have an excuse to everything, like how capitalism works and communism doesn't. their world is full of excuses. Venezuela? misery and national destruction? never heard of it. China's success only when going capitalist? that cause they were commies before they turned! basically ALL rich, healthy and functional states of the world capitalist? t-they're robbing! muh imperialism!
i don't even hate you, you make me hate you because i grow so fucking tired of it
| i should start quoting Hitler because funnily enough so many commies say things similar to what he said too
| >>731844
oh, important to point out: i'm basing myself on the model of the 3rd Reich when writing this, and might not have been very subtle with the word fascism... well, NB!
| >>731844
Since when is persecuting an ethnicity an act of anticapitalism? Not all banks were jewish, and most of capitalist industrialists in germany were germans and made much profit with nazi stuff - on cost of people. There still are very rich german families with that background. Opposing only parts of capitalists based on biologistic pseudo-science isn't anti-capitalistic.
| >>731844
Also in the beginning Hitler wasn't opposing the the UK or the USA at all. The USA didn't even care that much about what's happened in europe. They only entered the war because they were attacked by japan.
The nazis underestimated the massive impact on international relations caused by the unexpected hitler-stalin pact and an their attack on poland. Jewish banks or even generally jews played a minor up to no role in international politics back than.
| >>732117
>There still are very rich german families with that background
you don't mean George Soros?
also spell German correctly...
Hitler considered the jewish bolshevists and capitalist internationalism to be the same thing. thus he fought off jewish influence because to him they were rootless parasites basically representing capitalist big corps and imperialism to the detriment of the working classes they exploited.
also, i repeat myself, but Hitler was a socialist.
| >>731845
If socialism doesn't work anyways and is determined to fail, then why make so massive efforts in fighting it with all means? Why there are sanctions and interventions to venezuela and cuba? Why support religious fundamentalists to fight the soviets? Why support fascist dictators and mercenarries to make coup d'etat even against democratically elected leaders that are only suspected for being "socialists"?
| >>731846
Two people saying similar or even the same stuff doesn't have to be a similar or even the same thing.
| >>732121
indeed Hitler considered the British and American peoples to be "white brothers" against which war would just be worse than pointless. the USA attacked Germany first and the UK started WW2 when they declared it against Germany. Hitler even tried to negociate an end to the war in his "An appeal to reason" but the British government hid and censored it because the British people would have thought its conditions fair.
|
and how dare you say that jews played a minor role in international politics back then when communism was basically a jewish movement?
| >>732127
The only reason why many influential communist thinkers and leaders were from jewish origin was their histocially ambivalent status. Some jews had massive (but limited) priviliges, while most jews were treated like shit.
There were three ways of emancipation for jews in europe:
1. Integration/Assimilation
2. Emigration
3. Revolution
You should all learn more about the history of jewish people instead blaming them for things they never did.
| >>732128
Yeah, meaningless bullshit like most stuff Hitler said and wrote. What he reffered to as "communism" was in fact "stalinism" which was already a treacherous pervertation of communism.
This thread is permanently archived
| According to a false report by the conservative newspaper "washington times" a face recognition software identified a left-wing extremist among the fascist mob that recently stormed the US capitol.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jan/6/xrvision-firm-claims-antifa-infiltrated-protesters/
While the mentioned newspaper admitted their failure, parts of the fascist propaganda machinery runs hot in portraying the capitol storming as a false-flag operation by "the antifa".