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Man how does economics even existe?
| No, thats not how it was made, people choose the value.
Beforethe invention of capital, everyone traded phisical objects, but that became too inconvenient, so people decide to atribute values to their objects and bargain, they had to use stuff like precious stones, leaves, or even salt as money, that allowed the first nom pratical jobs to exist, since now people could pay you for something
| Because of that, salaries were invented, the value of someones work would also have to be quantifed, and more bargain was made until a common concenssus was reached.
Later in time people noticed that different places have different types of currency, so stuff like conversion and value would have to be calculates.
Say my apple costs 3 rocks but you use sticks as money, then in your village an apple is 6 sticks, with math, a rock has the value of 2 sticks.
| Oh and taking scarcity as a price changer, if my village has more apples than yours then it makes sense that the value is lower(3) and in yours is higher(6) this naturally makes my resources more valuable and thus my currency is more valuable especially because your village now might import apples from mine.
| But then imagine if your villages has more water and mine is having a drought, the value of water in mine sky rockets(say a 2 to 6) and yours is still the same(4), well now if I wanto import water from your village I will have pay you more since water has more value for me than for you, despite water being 4s for you, its 6r for me and doing the conversion, 1rock=2sticks, I will have to pay at least 3rocks wich equals 6sticks because the water has a higer value for me.
| I think that was a good way to explain economics with simple concepts, hope this clears your misconceptions and doubts.
| Oh!and here is a interesting situation, say a calamity happened and our villages are now migrating togheter, if one of us wanted water, what would be more valuable? Enought money to buy water or water in itself?
The water obviously, also the water carrier is hungry, if you had an apple and I had mone, you would have the advantage to be able to trade the food for water rather than just buy it.
| In a time of crisis, trading phisical objects is way more valuable than money in itself, so money really only has the value we give to it, since the phisical object will always have more value, money is just there to represent said value but in a crisi we dont need representants we need actual resources and thus trading
| >>703780
seriously though, capitalism seems to be a democratic system. it just so happens to be that people are idiots
| >>703784 I think people are just forgeting and not being educated properly on the basics of a society
| Can we skip to the part where we melt those 1793-1857 pennies, made of 100% copper, and go to jail?
| There is no shame in not knowing something
| >>969a47 thanks mate!
but another question: what makes economy viable even if It is the problem? For example, It wouldn't be antiethical to let people die by being born in a condition they cannot choose? It was a useful system centuries ago, but today the most of the world is slave of money, letting morality and ethics aside by pure greed. So what's the point of having a super flawed economy if we can already supply what mankind needs?
| Btw, im not a communist or anything, I'm just very very dumb in this subject
| >>703806 well giving respurces for free is unfair, not even in nature we get food for free, someone has to hunt, look for things wich means that there is work, with work we have value, so I instead of giving respurces we should give jobs and education to work said jobs
| >>703806 we cant really blame money for the bad stuff that people do, since those are crimes they more of social issues than econimical issues. The only system that can have a 0%crime rate is anarchy but thats because there is no rules, so people who comit crimes are actually acting against economy and the values
| >>703806 reasons you could say an economy still exists:
* as wealth and population density increase, so does the cost of living. a person used to only need food, water, and a place to rest to survive; now we need a building, sewer access, education, etc.
* other people own all the food, houses, and other things we need, and want money in exchange
* capitalism requires economic expansion to function, and a good way to expand is to include more places and activities in the system
| >>703753
>people choose the value
No that's not how things actually work. Value is determined by supply and demand, which in the current state isn't really a question of choice for people. Technology may have enabled people to increase the supply, but the demand also increased quantitative in general and qualitative in particular (it has to, due to the flawed eternal growth logic)
In the current state of our economy there is no real choice, only between pepsi or coke.
| >>703784
Capitalism only turns democracy into its degenerated form because people only look for their personal benefit, not for the common.
Capitalism also turns elitism into its degenerated form, because the elite will only looks for their personal benefit, not for the common.
Capitalism also turns a single person reign into its degenerated form, because the reign will only look for his personal benefit, not for the common.
See also "Rationality trap"
| >>703822 people commiting crimes and being selfish is what degenerates the system, if nobody comited crimes there would be way less conflicts but guess what, as lomg as you have rules there will be someone to break them
| >>703820 if its by the demand then people demanding are what decide the value, thus people choose the value.
Creating monopolies is a crime and thus the illegal actions that fall out of the system should not be valid proof that the system is broken, what is broken is the legal system that is not properly punishing criminals, not capitalism
| oh no, the commie is here!
| I'm still waiting for someone to choose the jailor.
Can't commit crimes until I know who is the law.
| Thanks. Fitting, considering I want to melt coins.
| can the jailer be a supremacist dom girl? please
| >>703824 this assumes the law is set and enforced objectively by people outside the society it governs, which isn't true. When the system inherently gathers huge resources into the hands of people who can leverage their existing resources, and incentivizes them to turn around and do it again, there's a permanent dynamic of those resources being turned against the kind of even, rational law you're imagining
| >>703834 I never assumed that, and what people do with their resources is their problem unless its ilegal, if it is ilegal then its the justice system has to deal with it, and if they cant then they are incompetent, it is still the justice systems fault for not adapting.
Also, aquiering resources is only a problem when its ilegal, its very hard to do resource hoarding and abuse legally, so the people who do that are criminals that break the system, thus against capitalism.
| Illegal deviation of resources was not originally planned for capitalism, thats why we made laws against it. If there are people that do this then the justtice is the one at fault.
Even if capitalism didnt exist there woudl still be a illegal way to diviate resources, since money just represents value, you would have people phisicaly deviating actual property, wich already happens in capitalism when people steal objects, wich can happen in all systems.
| Oh yeah, btw just clear that out, Im not saying that these problems in society dont exist, Im just saying that these problems are not caused by capitalism and they exist independent of if we have currency or not.
| >>703824
a major issue with capitalism is, that it relies fundamentally on mechanisms, which makes committing crimes beneficial:
competition and increasing profit
It's driven and advocated mostly by people who are privileged within this system. It's a fact that lots of successful businessmen have massive sociopathic/egomanic issues with a really low opinion on humanity. This results in a self fulfilling prophecy reproducing itself: People behave shitty because they are expected to.
| >>703837
>thats why we made laws against it
Just imagine, capitalists one day become so powerful, that they make the law... Oh they already do. And even more they bend it. Capitalists give a shit about democracy, the constitution or law. And most people also give a shit about humanism and environment if they get cheap goods and don't have to see the consequences directly. And also many even only see what capitalists media let them see: Everything is fine. Except evil immigrants.
| >>703837
>money just represents value
Money represents just the the claim on value. And this value is increasingly rather based on future expectations than about present value.
The next financial speculation bubbles will burst again (and again and again) And there will be stupid excuses again that will make politicians in all countries point over their borders. History is so repetitive, that it makes me sometimes wonder why I'm even interested in it.
| >>703856 commiting any crime is beneficial in any system if you dont get arrested, its not exclusive to capitalism
| >>703863 they dont, the ones who pay to bend the law are criminals, and if the justice system is accepting the bribe then the justice system is corrupt
| >>4fa850 you are blaming the capitalism for problems that are actually caused by the corrupt justice system, you arent wrong, just misguided, profit doesnt equal greed and money laundry is a crime, not actual valid capitalistic proceedure.
Blame justice for being corrupt and blame assholes who commit these big scams to get the numbers, capitalism did nothing wrong.
| US dollars are created by the US Federal Reserve loaning money to the US Government. Courts of law settle financial disputes, thus dictating the way in which money is used. Subsidies and taxes are imposed by governments. Governments use military force to open markets for their consitituents. The justice system and its corruption are part of the system.
| >capitalism did nothing wrong.
Capitalism requires non-capitalist territories to be capitalized/colonized. The rise of capitalism drove European colonialism and the American slave trade. More importantly, capitalism requires that there are people who will sell their labor/work for others, meaning they have to be poor enough that they cannot work for themselves, or make money via their savings. Capitalism requires a working class with low savings and quality of life.
| And finally, capitalism creates booms and busts, and people living during busts are not often pleased. Other systems aren't perfect, either, but saying capitalism is a perfect system is ridiculous. Elements must be taken from multiple types of economic systems to create one that maximizes benefits for all.
| >>703887 then the problem is the governament who is corrupting justice
>>703889 no it doesnt NEED, they just did that because it was more convenient but slavery and slave trade existed before capitalism and even existed in societies that didnt use capitalism like african tribes and even the mongolians and greeks, colonialism was driven more for the need of luxury and ample resources, why exploit your land when there is the rest of the world available? Not because capitalism forced
| >>703890 who said capitalism is perfect? Mixing up is good and guess what? People already do that in capitalism, some countries have way different types of governaments, rules, cultures, social structures and etc
| You talk as if capitalism is a monster that is putting people at a gun point to profit at all costs, most people are not like that and are content with their lives, what few corrupt individuals do isnt because capitalism bad, its because they are corrupt individuals that want to feel superior, these people exist in all systems and always will, if capitalism actually unfluenced people to be like that than the majority of people would have to be corrupt, but they arent
| >>703900 what does it not need? I stated multiple needs in that post. Assuming you meant the first one: Capitalism is expansionary by nature, as it requires constant economic growth to prevent crashes.
>need of luxury and ample resources
that were to be sold as products or used for manufacturing in Europe, because the market wanted them...
>>703902 you said "capitalism did nothing wrong," so I'll amend that phrase to "saying capitalism is a flawless system is ridiculous"
| >>703900
>then the problem is the governament who is corrupting justice
My point is that the government is a part of the system. A failure of the government is a failure of the system. The government corrupts justice, whatever justice is, because of the things it does to serve the system. Capitalism makes corrupt governments for itself.
| >>703988 corrupt, that is, by the way you used it there, not by the way it's usually used to mean 'politicians represent who pays them, not who votes for them'
| >>703989 and that where you are wrong, you say that capitalism is causing corruption, but thats just wrong, people before capitalism also exploited their systems for profit, russia did that, china does that, north korea does it too and you are just being delusional if you think the origin of all evil is capitalism, and again nobody said capitalism is perfect
| If capitalism was actually corrupting people then most people wpuld be corrupt, you dont need to be a capitalist to want to have more property, all you gotta do is be greedy, capitalism doesnt corrupt anything, assholes do
| Even if we lived in communism there would still be greedy people exploiting others and commiting crimes that would corrupt the system, in socialism we see that everyday with their leaders never wanting to move past socialism to create the commie utopia, corruption exists because power exists and greed is the obsessive desire for something that gives power. Thinking that its a problem artificialy generated by only capitalism is just baseless and ignorant.
| >>703889
>The rise of capitalism drove European colonialism and the American slave trade
You're wrong. European colonialism and the American slave trade drove capitalism. Capitalism is an economical system mainly characterized by the private property of production means (=capital). Those production means became the most relevant power factor thanks to the industrial revolution, which caused the collapse of the old feudal order which was based on land property.
| >>192e29
The industrial revolution in Europe and the USA was majorly driven by exploiting natural and human resources firstly from South America (meso-american gold and agrotech) and secondly from Africa (slave trade/labor). It was a combination of two topological and political factors which caused this development:
1. Europe has from all continents the longest coast line, which made seafaring a bigger thing there then elswhere.
2. The Ottomans blocked the trade routes to the east.
| The exploitation of those resources created a significant amount of wealth for people who were no feudal nobles or clerics who ruled over land. The import of highly efficient meso-american crops (columbian exchange) pushed the price of agricultural goods which caused the first big decrease of land property as power factor (feudalism). It also made the european population grow, increasing colonization, the mass production of goods (manufacturing) and trade.
| Even thought my contribution doesn't provide anything to the initial question, I thought it was important to clarify those historical facts.
| >>704061
Capitalism causes accumulation of resources in the hands of a few (=capitalists). Controlling resources means power, so the accumulation of those resources means an increase of power. Power corrupts, total power corrupts total.
Capitalism once will be replaced by a different kind of economy which is not based on private property of production means. But it doesn't matter if it's called communism and forced by a red flagged revolution or not. Stop romanticizing history.
| >>704061
Capitalism causes accumulation of resources in the hands of a few (=capitalists). Controlling resources means power, so the accumulation of those resources means an increase of power. Power corrupts, total power corrupts total.
Capitalism once will be replaced by a different kind of economy which is not based on private property of production means. But it doesn't matter if it's called communism and forced by a red flagged revolution or not. Stop romanticizing history.
| >>704270 never said that no private property means communism but ok.
And Im not even romanticizing history, I an just telling >>10a9e2 that corruption wasnt something started by capitalism and that we cant blame human corruption and crimes on capitalism, cuz there will always be corrution.
| >>704270 also the acummulation of resources doesnt really need to belong to few hands, it just does because people exploit it, this isnt exclusevly capitalist.
And yeah I agree, capitalism changing is something that will happen, the only problem is that there are so many "revolutionaries" that are just making "my original communist utopia do not steal" instead of actually doing something to that is sustainable and effective
| >>704281
>also the acummulation of resources doesnt really need to belong to few hands
As opposed to accumilation of recources spread out to everyone?
| >>704280
>I an just telling >>10a9e2 corruption wasnt something started by capitalism and that we cant blame human corruption and crimes on capitalism, cuz there will always be corrution.
I believe that humans aren't inherently/naturally corrupt. This view on humanity is just propagated by the ruling class, to make the ruled class feel individually guilty instead of questioning the status quo. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy thought, but only as long enough people believe in it.
| But you're right, this phenomenon was not introduced by capitalism, but by the transition of acquiring economy to a producing economy, due to the neolithic revolution. Corruption is caused by power and capitalism may does increase productivity, but it does not solve the issue of distribution of power. In the opposite: The gap between the poorer (and poor doesn't necessarily mean people dying from starvation), powerless masses and the rich ruling class is increasing continiously.
| >>704281
>the only problem is that there are so many "revolutionaries" that are just making "my original communist utopia do not steal" instead of actually doing something to that is sustainable and effective
Well, you have to admit, that a revolution that questions and overthrows a world wide dominiating political-economical order that made some people ridiculously rich and powerful has to face massive opposition. This often turned things to the opposite of the initial intention.
| I would it call the revolutionary paradoxon. It's not exlusive to communism, that revolutionaries became/created the opposite of what they intentionally wanted and eventually equally bad or even worse than what they were fighting against.
There is also another thing but failure (to the official goals) that communist revolutions have in common: They all occurred in countries which weren't industrialized at all. They all were in an early capitalist or even feudal constitution.
| >>704302 thats why I belive the best way to evolve is to do small changes, if we have a problem we solve it! By changin the rules and adapting them to the present, little by little we will achive a new system, like the "replace the boat parts until its a new one", its a more moderate form of revolution but its less violent, less radical and has way lower chances of crapping uppon society since its all small changes that can easely be reevaluated and changed back.
| Extremism is never good
| >>704280
Communism is the state of a society in which people aren't divided in economical classes anymore, which is reached by replacing the private property of production means by public property of production means. A big misconception about communism is that there is no ordinary private property anymore and that people all have to be/live the same way.
| >>704307
You cannot say that. Your "never" is a very extreme word in itself already. It's paradox.
| >>704307
It's also quite relative. For example in the medieval period, in Saudi Arabia or Northkorea our current beloved western democracies were/are considered to be quite extreme.
| >>704309 there is still space for individuality in communism but is smaller then what we are all used to, and it could be very inconvenient in certain cases
| Gold standard!! BRING BACK THE GOLD STANDARD REEEE
| This is the least cancer /new/ thread of the year for sure
| >>703765 No. The money is more valuable, because it's more liquid (in the economic sense) than water, and it's easier to carry. If you have enough money to buy that water, then you can buy that water, but you can also buy more things and more easily easier than you can with the water.
| >>704312 Set theory has proven the futility universal statements. We never talk about things generally, but always in a restricted universe. Saying that extremism is never good, says that all extremism is not good. Extremism, however, is not just any extremism, but extremism pertaining to the universe of discourse---economics.
| Sorry:
*discourse---in this context: economics.
| >>703797
>There is no shame in not knowing something
No, there's not. But there should be great shame in refusing to know something that's good to know.
| >>704433 uuuuuh how do I explain that this was already discussed and the the conclusion depends on the people?
| >>704432 I suggest you to read again that, there is some important context as to why, in a crisis, the phisical object has much more value than the currency in itself
| >>704464
Yeah, but what's the point of opinions that fundamentally contradict/refuse knowledge? E.g. flat earthers.
| >>704468 tbh Idk, like is important to questuin everything but if you are willing to question then you must also accept that some things are just wrong, some people just cant reach step 3
| screw capitalists
yeah
BY someone who are going to put you in gulag
This thread is permanently archived
| I mean one day someone literally took something and said that it had some random value or shit and now i have to kill myself from studies to win a salary that barely lets me survive and repeat this until i die
And everybody just looks and says "Nah thats fine" because yes (???)