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There is no "human nature," so communism is feasible.
| bitch are you a fucking bird
i bet that you as a communist want humans to be relegated to the status of mere animals, like they were in the soviet union and today's china. a fucking dystopia that it is mate, you're a fagger
| There is no human nature therefore we don't need to give away the means of production for a "greater good" as the lack of a "nature" means everyone can do whatever they want to
Capitalism wins, checkmate commies
| Capitalism itself is unatural, because industrialization is unatural. Without industrialization no production means. Without production means no private ownership of them, which means no capitalism.
"Communism doesn't work because it's against human nature" comming from a capitalist is pretty hypocritical. But yes, marx admitted somewhere that humans in a communist society would be or even have to be different than they currently are.
| >>556742
he says, as he types on his industrially-produced laptop, munching on industrially-produced cheetos, not being dead because of industrially-produced vaccines and medical inventions.
your entire life in built on capitalism, dude.
| >>556742 now you're spouting nonsense, industry is not really unnatural, just on a bigger scale than what other animals do, monkeys and birds are known to make primitive tools from things they have around them, insects have almost literal production lines, none of that is human exclusive
All these things you deem unnatural are concepts taken from nature and applied more efficiently and on a higher scale
| >>556744
i somewhat disagree, industry is unnatural to the human individual in his natural origins, but it is precisely what makes us so great on this planet, at least in the material sense.
it seems that the deluded apple-commie is advocating a return to primitive ages.
that is retarded, and, ultimately, impossible at this stage of our evolution.
the machine is already running, it is too late to turn back now.
| We should grab all commies and put them into a new country to see how long they last without any byproduct of capitalism
| Is everyone gonna ignore the fact that OP is clearly trolling?
| >>Idk, usually the communist response to the human nature argument is that people behave in accordance to the conditions they're raised in, like the economic system of their society. Like if someone said, "People are naturally greedy." A communist might say, "That's because capitalism incentivizes greed." Idk, thought it was pretty reasonable
| >>556757
capitalism incentivizes people to work their ass off and better themselves to gain more, which continuously pushes society upward by exploiting human selfishness, unlike communism, which persists to believe in unicorns and also that people are wondrous sacrificial workers with lots of virtue and patriotism in their heart that are ready to be as miserable as everybody and accept that their efforts will amount to nothing as it gets them absolutely nowhere.
| >>556760
go ask mao zedong, stalin, pol pot and other communist murderers. somebody pls bring a number on how many million deaths these three caused
| >>556762 the thing is that communist is the system made to attract jealous people who would rather bring others down than netter themselves to get something
| >>556762
Dude, all due respect, but you've got it backwards. Under capitalism you're either overworked and underpaid for your labor buy the people who actually own the means of production(who produce nothing themselves), or you become those people. More likely the former since upward mobility is fucked in capitalist countries. And that's just how capitalistism affects the first world. Your understanding about labor under communism is also misinformed.
| >>556762
It disregards the vast amount of people that are passionate about their careers and don't just wanna cash a paycheck. And what do you mean their labor is for nothing? Labor is always producing something.Under communism people would control their own labor and own the products of it. Labor vouchers allotted to people to workers proportional to the amount of work they have done isn't a new concept either.
| >>556762
You're also ignoring the fact that human labor can be replaced with more efficient automated labor and capitalism has no solution but to create pointless jobs a machine could do. Capitalism has no longevity. I don't even think we need to talk about what corporations have done to the environment just to make a profit.
| >>556774 and here's another fatal flaw in communism, and of there is a job that is essential but no one is passionate enough to do it? We wait until someone decides to finally automate it? And if people get demotivated to automate said essential job? We just say "oh well let's just forget it" and, for example, leave the streets flooded with garbage or we enter the authoritarian mode and revoke people's freedoms until the problem is solved?
| >>556773 >>556774
there is almost no meritocracy under communism. in capitalism it's a core element since if you work hard and clever you get somewhere. the creator of tetris in the soviet union made the state millions but got nothing but a certificate of approval.
it's also funny to see that you're defending a system which is practically not used nowadays, instead capitalism is adopted in almost all countries nowadays except shitholes. and it works.
| if capitalism doesn't work you need better capitalism.
the whole world and all its countries understand this.
this is reality
| >>556776
You're being a little short sighted here dude. Yes, automating all work is ideal obviously, but until then, menial tasks like garbage duty could work on a volunteer basis, rotating shifts for the community, or be incentivized with labor vouchers if need be. A communist government doesn't need to be totalitarian. I don't blame you for thinking that, I'm assuming you live in a capitalist country. We're all cyberpunk fans here right? I'm sure everyone's familiar propaganda.
| >>556776
Plus, in a lot of ways labor is forced under capitalism. In the first world, you either work or go without a lot of things nobody should(potentially food, healthcare, housing), and in the third world you can be forced into a sweatshop as a child, work for $2 a day as an adult, or end up starving quicker.
| >>556777
Pajitnov and Pokhilko weren't paid because they used state property to make the game. The USSR is a funny case when it comes to socialism. In the time period when they made Tetris, the MOP were owned in part by the state, a series of worker co-ops, and small rural capitalist farmers. In a fully communist society, where the MOPs are owned in common, they would have owned their game. And did they even make the game with the desire to turn a profit?
| >>556777
And what about the talented people who didn't succeed under capitalism? Tesla, Poe, Kafka, and countless others died in poverty. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a huge court case between Google and a software developer that wanted to keep his code after he was laid off?
| You know the "problem" with the current capitalism? It's the cuck mentality
you failed? "It's not your fault you are special, too good for them"
You didn't get the job you wanted? We shouldn't allow this discrimination!"
"Why be a boss when you can have a stable job?"
"we need the government to stop this injustice"
People are getting too weak, they expect someone else to solve their problems and they'd rather have low risk than high reward
Communism will only worsen this problem
| >>556777
Not to mention that your argument at the end is just an ad populum and it ignores the popularity of communist politics in the global south. And what do you mean by "capitalism works?" More and more people are falling into poverty, and the earth is quickly becoming inhabitable. Maybe things aren't coming apart at the hinges(yet), but this isn't a sustainable model.
| >>556778
Again, not to be combative, but capitalism will always necessitate exploitation. It's necessary to make a profit. But that's unnecessary for anyone who doesn't own a factory, or a transportation company. Technology has progressed to the point where capitalism is obsolete. The only reason it's still around is because capitalists control the world's resources and don't want give them up. Capitalists WANT you to think you need it. What happened to the punk in cyberpunk guys?
| >>556789 the punk in cyberpunk became a cuck and started doxing people on the internet while eat8ng soylent for the sake of "social justice" and now clamors to have the government take everyone's freedom because love and rainbows will save everyone that's not sent to the gulag
| >>556782
I really hope you're trolling dude. Upward mobility is next to impossible for people who weren't already born with decent means. Blaming individuals for a system that's designed to keep power at the top doesn't make sense. You're also ignoring the fact that job and housing discrimination are real and do prevent people from obtaining wealth.
| >>556792 I'm not trolling, I'm dead serious, you people keep crying capitalism and all that shit but I never see you people actually trying
I landed quote a few bad jobs in ky life, all I did was start sending my curriculum and do job interviews, that's way more than you can say for most people who complain about how they are oppressed by capitalism, and still it's not enough, I gotta start taking more risks too, ASAP
| I'm really sick of all this I met many people a million times more qualified and experienced than I will ever be, but all of them were afraid of failing, they were afraid of losing their comfy low paying job and kept their hopes on an eventual promotion and complaining how capitalism made them victims, ten years later I'm in a great job being paid twice what they are and they're still stuck on the same dead end job complaining about the unfairness of capitalism
| >>556794
I'm legit happy to hear that you're doing well for yourself man, but that isn't possible for everyone. Look up employment statistics by the EEOC, look up housing statistics by the NFHA. Even if I never had a job in my life(which isn't true) that wouldn't make what I'm saying about capitalism any less true. It's like you're just ignoring all of it.
| >>556795
Anecdotal evidence doesn't change the fact that capitalism destroys more lives than it aids. You're friends had a reason to be scared of failure dude, a bad entrepreneurial risk could leave you bankrupt. And we're not even touching on all the people in poor countries that get exploited for menial labor for shit wages.
| >>556763
Hey sorry, I know you commented a while ago, but I just feel like I left a stone unturned. The astronomical death tolls most people attribute to socialism in China and Russia ignore factors like rise in population, and natural disasters. When you take all that into account they're roughly on par with capitalist countries. I know it's a popular misconception, but legit the Bolsheviks brought Russia from a 3rd world country to a superpower and Mao doubled life expectancy
| >>556763
Pol Pot is a strange case. He wasn't really a socialist outside of the name. Commies got the bullet too. He was more like a weird primitivist nationalist.
| If my anecdotal evidence is not enough then YOU give me solid proof that communism will work
Cause I see only two scenarios
1. It fails because there's no incentive to work and not enough people will get their hands dirty
2. It fails because an authoritarian government makes people miserable to avoid scenario 1
so far you just explained that "capitalism will fail" , and gave nothing to prove communism will succeed, the failure of one doesn't make the other succeed automatically
| Know what? don't prove me anything, after seeing you defend Mao I'm sure you have mental problems
I'm leaving and hope you find a good psychiatrist
| >>556803
Dude, I didn't defend anyone, I cleared up a misconception. As soon as someone brings up communism, normally intelligent people start believing capitalism has done no wrong. And I've already explained the possible ways communism could work here, again, it's like you're ignoring it. Full communism has never been reached, but if you'd like some examples of real worl socialism, there's the Paris Commune, Allende's Chile, the Hungarian Soviet Republic and more than I can list.
| The only reason they aren't around is because of outside capitalist violence.
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pu
Just as to your point that people would be miserable under socialism. This is a study conducted using data from the world bank in 1983 showing that at similar levels of economic development, socialist countries offer a similar, if not better quality of life.
| >>556799 Idk about that second tidbit but regardless that doesn't make them any less bloodthirsty mass murderers my guy, we know for a fact they slaughtered and starved millions, regardless of population size or anything so acting like it's not that bad because of that is bullshit. I guess Hitler and the nazis weren't as bad now because he brought Germany out of the economic shitshow caused by the treaty of Versailles and arguably brought them to superpower status?
| >>556815
I never said that these regimes were perfect, or exempt, I'm saying that they aren't the hellscapes people made them out to be. My point was these countries didn't commit any crimes capitalist countries aren't guilty of and actually did do some remarkable things. Comparing them to Nazi Germany is a false equivalence. The Nazi economy was centered around war based expansion and entered a huge deficit trying to finance it. Germany was a superpower in military only.
| >>556815
http://www.china-profile.com/data/fig_WPP2008_L0_1.htm
I slightly exaggerated the statistic. My bad. You can clearly see the average life expectancy rise from the low 40s to the high 60s
| I guess I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to shy away from the blood on socialist hands across the world. I'm just saying it wasn't uncommon. I just see a lot of people who act like millions don't starve under capitalism whenever socialism comes up. There's just a huge stigma around socialism and it's like everyone ignores everything but the body count.
| Fuck this is some deep bait
| Cooumlism killed 800 trillion people reeeeeeeeee
| Stalin killed half of Russia's population with the Infinity Gauntlet
| >unironically thinking communnism is actually possible without mind control
oh you sweet summer child
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3706593/
Copied a link wrong earlier
| >>556815 the first thing the Nazis did upon claiming power was to privatize public industry. They were the opposite of socialists.
| Communists and op are fags
| Communism burned our crops, poisened our water supply and delivered a plauge unto our houses
| The biggest soviet famine was after gorbachev was elected. He was the least socialist leader russia had had at that point and rolled back a lot of policies. The biggest famine in china was because natural disaters threw off economic planning
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| All animals share nature, so no nature is innately human. Checkmate, capitalists.