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zizek peterson debate is live!
| who is peterson and why should we care
| you really shouldn't but its fun to watch. Peterson is that dude who wrote 12 rules for life and thinks that somehow capitalism still works
| >>552459 Is Peterson bad? I don't know much about politics, and while he seems highly conservative, his talks are generally as insightful as Alan Watts, minus the soothing experience.
| >somehow capitalism still works
"Somehow" it does, at least for the capitalists. Until the next crisis comes which will drive on polarization and the success of extremists of any kind.
| capitalism is working, you just have the wrong definition of work hehe
| >>552461 yeah Peterson is generally wrong about most of the things he says, and the insights are typically so mundane as to be laughable, especially the conclusions he draws from them.
| >>552703 Um, as I've said, I don't get politics, so I'm not going to comment on that. But can you elaborate more on why you think he's wrong and/or too mundane? I personally feel that while, yes, his advice is mundane, he knows how to articulate it in a way that is easy to understand and positive sounding. I'm sure there's many who agree. And it's also more support than has ever given to me, online or offline. Yes, that makes me a pathetic person. Go away you fulfilled human being.
| >>552724 well I mean "clean your room" is good advice if you have a dirty room but if you're pathetic already, Christian conservativism is probably just going to make you miserable. he's wrong when he says certain issues are individual and not systemic, he's wrong about a lot of the books he cites (Orwell & Wigan Pier), his advice just isn't particularly useful for people who have actually read the books he's talking about...
I could go on and on but if you find it useful, well
| >>552724 he has a video he does for PragerU (because he's a grifter) where he tells people not to try to change the world because they're too stupid to. That's how he uses politics on people who don't know about politics to achieve political goals. Also, most of his talking points are taken from fascists- eg natural hierarchies are how capitalists justify onerous economies.
| you can tell his most ardent fans are right wing sociopaths because whenever he questions the right, for example with Brett Kavanaugh, his supposedly classical liberal fans say he's suddenly lost his mind.
And....one thing you can absolutely not say about him is that he communicates clearly.
=\
IDK I understand why it's appealing but it's literally just self help which blames you for failures of things outside your control. What did Einstein say about a messy room?
>>552724
| Peterson is basically a guy who got famous because he has a Ph.D and talks like your dad. I wouldn't really suggest taking his teachings seriously, but some people find him to be a good role model.
Wasn't he selling some kind of vinegar scam or something recently?
| >>593bc7 I want to argue some things you quoted.
From what I see, he's only bringing up examples from religions, not only Christianity, though that seems to be the most cited, about how one should live ones life. I'm not going to fall into the Christianity memes like many of the other braindead Peterson fans who spend their time posting lobster memes in the Peterson subreddit.
I haven't read Orwell yet to be honest, so I will get to that.
| I personally agree that some people should set their life in order first before taking on the world at large. If nothing else, at least it makes you more fulfilled. Help yourself before others, as some say.
Yeah, it would seem he's pretty fascist leaning, but I think he's doing that because some people don't have others to help, and so needs an intangible pressure to get them moving about, sort of in opposition to Nietzche who promotes struggling out of oppression and control.
| And to make it so I don't seem too much on his side, I do think that he's been doing too much politics. Even when reading his self-help book I cannot escape mentions of his views on his opponents. Even if he says it's difficult to ignore since they're such a big part of and the bane of his life, I only want to know what I need to do to help myself. This kind of makes it difficult to follow the 'clean your room' anecdote when it seems he's trying to rally people for another crusade.
| >>11dbb1 so you might say he needs to get his own room in order before he starts telling others what to do with their rooms, huh?
Look, as I said in my original criticism of him: the advice of his which is useful, like cleaning your room, is so basic that you can get it from people who aren't fascists or wrong about politics/philosophy or grifters selling estrogen vinegar.
do I really need to know about postmodern cultural Marxism to clean my closet? Marie Kondo doesn't think so
| >>553625
>cultural Marxism
This term doesn't make any sense. Marxism is about historical materialism, where culture is pretty much determined by economical circumstances (=the "basis"). In capitalism the most significant economical circumstance is the private ownership of so called production means. Changing it will change society, including culture (=the superstructure).
"Cultural Marxism" is only a right winger propaganda term to blame marx inspired movements for liberal failure
| >>553753 I agree. If I didn't make that clear I apologise. He throws around those words a lot and they're some of the things he gets wrong.
He mostly uses that nonsensical label, postmodern cultural Marxist, to describe teenagers he doesn't like. I believe it is code for conspiracy theories which blame the Jewish cabal for disaffected young white rage, also.
| >>553625
>Marie Kondo
I don't like her "philosophy" which I think it's rather a smart business model that tells normal people to renounce on materialistic consume in favor for immaterialistic consume. In reality I see how it makes people that follow this kind of "get rid of everything" ideology even more dependent on those who own stuff. The "freedom" they won by this gets sucked by those who rule at the labour market and those who claimed the rights on imaterialist stuff eg ideas.
| >>553753 >>553840 Peterson fanboy here. Yup, I have bo idea what you're talking about.
>>553890 You obviously have only heard a very summarized description of her. Amongst learning how to organize, she also taught how to not overdo it. Iirc, things can be kept beyond the essentials if they fall into these four category: informative, limited-edition, sentimental, and one more which I forgot. What's important isn't to know what to remove, but what to keep.
| zizek is my daddy
| >>553897
See, I'm an universal handcrafsman, artist and environmentalist. My lifestyle includes collecting stuff that people throw away and making it usable.
Most of my friends tell me I should throw away lots of my stuff, because it would make me happier and more flexible. On the other hand they spent lots of money for media, software and service subscriptions I would never spent a single cent for.
I would prefer people just wouldn't buy stuff they don't need in the first place.
| >>553992
The thing is that I can share my stuff with others. I even love to do it. Of course I don't need all my tools and materials all the time and I know keeping them is uneconomically, since it needs much space. But exactly the people who say "uh, nobody needs this stuff" come to me as soon they suddenly need something from my stuff anyhow.
On top it's much harder to share the flexibility and subscriptions with me they gained with their "get rid of everything" minimalism.
| >>553897
>Iirc, things can be kept beyond the essentials if they fall into these four category: informative, limited-edition, sentimental, and one more which I forgot.
See, if this fourth category is not "(probably) useful", than this ideology is nothing for me. And even if it includes this category as I described it's very very debatable what actually count as "useful". If you have no fantasy and no craftsman skills, than it's hard to see the potential of many stuff.
| >>553897
>Yup, I have bo idea what you're talking about.
And I have no idea about what you have no idea they're talking about.
| >>97a286 And that's great. If you have the time for it, then go you. But for those who are in need of being as efficient as possible, as is generally required of a Japanese wagie, organization is preferred over improvization. I will agree though that people need to manage their finances better.
I simply don't understand terms like 'cultural marxism' or 'historical materialism'. Politic-speak is currently one of the fastest evolving vocabulary, and I just can't keep up.
| >>554000
>>553897
>>553890
The point is that Marie Kondo can tell you to clean your room without also telling you everybody who disagrees with capitalism is just immature; JBP can't even tell you to declutter without first trying to sell you more shit you don't need
| >>554027 "cultural Marxism" is a nonsense term made up by fascists to allude to a conspiracy theory that Jews run the world. According to the dictionary Google uses to define what people say words mean, historical materialism means viewing historical events as being caused by conflicts over scarce resources.
| >>554029 While he does interject a lot of political stuff in, at this point you're just spouting slander, aren't you? I've yet to see him partake in such things as scams.
| >>554030 Thanks, I suppose. The first answer seems extreme. I think he just dislikes what Communism could have been, without considering what Capitalism already is or something. He says he hung pictures of Lenin, Stalin, Mao and such in his house to 'remind' himself. He's also no anti-semite if that's what you implied, because he has received endorsements from some Jewish figures, albeit I'm going to assume they are conservative.
| I don't see why private management/free trade/market gets so much hate. of course it's not perfect, but so far it's the only economic systen that managed to get the most amount of people clothed, housed and fed. criticisms and improvements are always welcome but dismanteling it and replacing it with alternatives that have horribly failed it's nonsensical
| >>d531ab
ps: note that I don't use the term capitalism because it was coined to be used as a critc
it's a dirty blanket term to describe free societies and the methods in which those living on them acquire wealth
| >>554562 so you didn't see the Joe Rogan interview where he says that eating only meat cured his depression and directs listeners to the dietary counseling his daughter offers where she recommends the same? Come on
>>554563 some Jews endorsing you doesn't preclude your being anti-Semitic. He spews anti Jewish propaganda, such as blaming cultural Marxism. Please don't try to tell me he doesn't do that.
>>554588 it's because its biggest proponents rig the system & destroy the Earf
| >>554590 I call capitalists capitalists because they exploit privatize public wealth, eg literally any natural resource. When they want to be "job creators" they claim they're supporting communities and when they want to exploit those communities they say it's all about the bottom line.
Don't get me wrong, I could only waste time here because my capital is making capital regardless of my labor, but I don't insist doing makes the world better/ is morally neutral. Do you?
| >>554607 That has nothing to do with vinegar. And he isn't selling anything, only recommending a diet. Are you serious? Also, I'm a devout pescatarian, but the thing with his daughter is that she had a medical condition where she can only go by on a carnivore diet. He originally went along to support his daughter. I do agree though that his views saying people are at their best as a carnivore is very narrow-minded. Sone can adapt to a purely herbivore diet too. Fruitism, even.
| >>554607 Ok, fine. But then how exactly is cultural marxism anti-semitic? And how anti-semitic is it that he still has Jewish allies? Hell, I don't get what postmodern even means. Simply saying that A is B without explaining why doesn't clear anything up.
| >>554641 he's recommending his daughter's service which she sells and they both say eating beef can cure depression. No it's not estrogen vinager, you're right, he just does vids for PragerU and is a medical quack in other ways.
>>554642 the word was literally coined by Nazis to allude to anti-Jewish rhetoric without saying anything directly anti-Jewish https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2003/cultural-marxism-catching
| >>554641 look, dude, the point about him being a grifter who targets incels is honestly incidental; it's his fascism that's really dangerous. Do you really need somebody with a PHD and a perpetual frown to tell you about how cleaning your room will make you happy? Have you ever actually seen JBP's room in his Livestreams? It's messy as fuck, bro
| >>554659 I don't watch much of his livestreams. But from what I remember, it's mostly filmed in either a dark room or a hallway. So I decided to Google it up and found one sorta messy room picture amongst many other very clean ones. You can argue though that in those clean ones, he was prepared since he was posing. But it is also arguable that that one pic of his room is messy because it's in the process of reorganization. You can clearly see a vacuum cleaner behind his chair.
| >>554659 I also feel you're putting too much focus on the room cleaning part. His goal isn't merely to just tell people to clean their rooms, he wants them to get their shit, life, or shit life together. Never have I read *how* to clean my room in JBP's book, only why I should. I bought Marie's book before I did his, and I have to say, I found it much more motivating knowing how much better my life could be if I just did it, which it is.
| And I felt like I brought this up already, but his Fascism mindset is so people who had nobody who knows how to help them have an intangible pressure to get them to improve themselves. I can understand why you would be uneased that it'll give rise to neo-nazis, and going on the Peterson subreddit, I can def see why. But just because something is hierarchical or orderly doesn't make it evil, it's what people take from it.
| I have no idea who Dr. Oz is.
Peterson isn't a medical expert, that much is obvious, so its best to just let that go.
>>554658 Ugh, my head hurts. I really don't want to get anymore involved in politics, but what the hell. I'll keep this in my tabs for later reading for now, if you don't mind.
| >>554814 so you're saying he's just a fascist because that's what his fans want? I don't think that's the stellar defense you think it is.
And I'm not intentionally focusing on the cleaning the room, I'm focusing on the political and philosophical content of what he says and does. Cleaning the room is a convenient example because his followers aren't exactly astute about those deeper topics, but his other pieces of advice are also stupid. Eat a high-fatty breakfast? Come on
| >>554815 dude your responses to like literally every claim I'm making are "well I don't really know about that," or "he's obviously so wrong it's not worth going into."
Why are you defending this guy?
His advice is bad.
Go watch the Dr Oz interview, it's free, and see if you still want to take the dude's advice on anything. And, again, what did Einstein have to say about a clean room? It's worth looking up.
| >>554816
>eat a high fatty breakfast
I really should pay more attention to him because I don't remember this. I'm not his biggest fanboy y'know. But that isn't very political or philosophical, so if you have a problem with something he said that is part of those categories instead of nutritional, that'd make it easier for me to understand your stance.
~epic male cop (top kek)
| >>554819 giving nutritional advice when you are not a nutritionist is a philosophical problem.
Put another way, if cleaning your room is good for you, why do you need a fascist to sell you a book to tell you so?
My stance on him is that he says things that aren't true and people who don't know any better are like "that sounds right."
Do you disagree?
| >>554817 I thought I made a bit decent of an argument, but I've been saying from the beginning that politics isn't my forte anyways.
I'll get back to this thread then after I'm done with the interview.
I can't find Einstein's quote? I'm sure he said something alone the lines of 'an empty room, an empty mind; a messy room, a thoughtful mind', but it'd be nice if you copy the quote for me. Still, if your room is so messy it impairs your thoughts, will you keep it messy? An excuse.
| >>554821 also, dude, come on. Telling people what to eat is political, ask a vegan. Claiming a certain course of action is preferable to another is literally what philosophy is about.
| >>554821 I wouldn't say that's either a philosophical or a political problem, merely an ethical one. Of course, it's one thing if it's a way of life, but it's at least worth considering because usually the anecdotes he brings up are personal.
| >>554823 ugh I can't spoon feed you everything, as it is when I do post links they get ignored, so....
Yes, that's the gist of the quote; the point is that Einstein's free advice there directly contradicts JBP's advice, which he sells in self-help books.
I don't doubt cleaning your room helped you out, but did you really need two decades of living and a thesis from an antisemite to convince you?
| >>554828 personal anecdotes are not evidence and therefore cannot evince an argument; this is also a matter of philosophy.
| >>554821 Obviously cleaning my room is good for me. It's also good if I become ascetic and stop smoking and drinking; if I become more prepared for my future and start returning to university despite my social anxiety; if I just become more happy and ignore my depression. I need motivation. That is the crux of my argument. If a fascist is telling me to be more orderly and it helps, so be it. If idiots fall for their rhetoric, that's them.
Has he said something explicitly false?
| >>554816 Also, this is more stellar an argument than you think. Obviously you've heard many times 'it's not the game that's bad, it's the community', and that applies to people too. You can see Christians interpreting the bible however way they see fit in a way that benefits them. Even Marxism cannot escape being changed by various corrupt individuals in many parts of history. JBP may be conservative, but not as extreme as some of his fans at least from what I see.
| >>554832 actually studies show that people who smoke and drink in moderation are generally in better health than ascetics, so that thing you think is obvious is actually false. That's why you can't trust your seemingly common sense, like, at all.
And yes, he said he didn't sleep for twenty five days, I believe that was on Joe Rogan.
| >>554834 lmao he's not conservative, he's literally a fascist, and when you develop an understanding of politics you'll see quite clearly how many of the things he says are explicitly false. But politics isn't your forte, so....
https://youtu.be/o73pqQ9Gzt4
| >>554829 Well, that's fine. I do have a lot to go through: The Dr. Oz interview, Orwell, and the cultural marxism thing.
It's not like I haven't had people tell me 'lole, just do this and you'll be happy'. Obviously, that's not going to convince me. I need to be explained to like a five year old why doing it is good for my mental well-being. It really does give me peace of mind.
His advice is free. He gives lectures. The book is more in-depth on his advice is all.
| >>554842 his advice is bad bordering on harmful. You literally just said something you didn't research but thought was obviously true, which science has proven untrue. He does those things too.
You're not in any position to recognize good advice, honestly, and you should clean your room before you start trying to convince others your room is clean. Because I can smell ya dirty laundry from here. Good day.
| >>554837 I think I've heard of that. but my argument remains. If people are naturally self-improving, society wouldn't have any problems.
Now that's just bullshit, isn't it? The longest recorded time without sleep is approximately 264 hours, or just over 11 consecutive days. You begin to hallucinate after just 3-4 days. What kind of Ubermensch is Peterson, exactly?
>>554840 The video you just showed me is pretty ok to me. I can see why you would be unhappy with it though.
| >>554851
>harmful
It's bad, but I don't see how it can be explicitly harmful, but ok.
>I can smell ya dirty laundry from here
While it's true I do have some laundry lying around, why are you making assumptions about me?
>Good day.
And a condescending end to boot. Honestly, I'm getting very irritated now, so let's just end this. I've been doing my best to be cordial here, but obviously I'm only being seen as an enemy. Not once have you ever tried conceding to me. Good day.
| what the hell is fascist about jbp man you sound like a cali uni student, calling everything you don't like "fascist"
stop throwing that word around like nothing, it has a powerful meaning and it's meant to be used against people who are actually fascists, not just conservatives
jbp advocates for individualism, the OPPOSITE of fascism. the guy is right wing. you do realize that fascism is a left-wing ideology, don't you?
| >>554861 why would I concede anything that you haven't evinced? Do you not know how argument works?
Get outta here, dude. Go clean your room.
| >>554862 his whole thesis is about natural dominance hierarchies and how questioning authority is wrong. That's about as authoritarian fascist as it gets.
By the way I'd rather sound like a uni student than an illiterate, so...I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you.
| >>554865
surprise surprise bud, you'll see "natural dominance hierarchies" and "obey the law"-sorta spiels in all kinds of ideologies, not just fascism
| >>554866 https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2003/cultural-marxism-catching
Do you also find Nazi talking points in "all kinds of ideologies?" Or is that just among the lobsters?
| >>554866 wait, let me guess, "b-b-but Nazis were left wing! Socialists!"
Which is why the first thing they did upon siezing power was to privatize the public press, right?
So stupid
| >>554607
and some of it's biggest proponents contribute to natural preservation and efficient use of natural resources
I don't think private enterprise is at fault for this. in fact all of these ideas and projects come from free societies
and about that "rig the system thing", not only private corporations have the intention and resources to do that kind of thing. shit, I'd say it's usually the state who fucks over people rather than corporations
| >>554867
I do actually. I think nazism has a lot in common with communism
>>554871
well, worshipping the state, press censorship, restricted trade, and collectivism over individualism are undeniably leftist approches to politics
| >>554872 it's interesting that the comment right above yours was about Nazis privatizing public infrastructure as a cornerstone of their plans, don't you think?
I think the state and the corporation can fuck people over in equal measure, but the state typically has some form of accountability. Meanwhile, Elon smokes weed with Joe Rogan while his employees get fired for the same and Beff Jezos doesn't pay taxes; how much does he make in gov subsidies, any idea?
| >>554611
well enjoying the fruits earned with the sweat of your brow is definitely moral and something to be proud of
| >>554877
I also believe corporations and the gov can fuck people in equal measure, but it's how they make money what's accountable. if a company fucks up, they go broke. if a state fucks up, it will still be there forever and ever pushing people over
| >>554880
you don't think that people are entitled to what they earn with their efforts? I thought leftists got bleeding hearts about the plight of the working class. who else does wealth belongs to besides those who work to make it?
want a citation? genesis 3:19. I can't quote any "objective" (filthy, filthy word) works about it because it's a matter of principles. you may see things through a different lens, but that doesn't make you right about it
| >>554884 so you think nationstates last forever? Uhhh....have you never heard of revolutions or, you know, voting? War?
Meanwhile, companies that fuck up disperse risk and consolidate reward and then reorganize to keep on keepin' on.
Ask yourself whose economies do better, red States or blue states?
| >>554887
"alt-right"ists are an ALTERNATIVE approach to right wing politics. no wonder why they take different turns than traditional conservatism
| >>554890 the working class' wages have been stagnant since the seventies, while corporate profits have soared. That kinda disproves your point, I'm afraid. Try again. Maybe try using a book from the New Testament
| >>554892 yeah, but altrightists typically portray themselves as liberals. Didn't Gavin McGuiness come out and say that he was socially liberal, provided that the state ensured a monoethnic society? It's like, yeah, for a Nazi, I'm sure he's okay with gays as long as they're white. Super liberal. This is a consequence of America shifting to the right.
| >>554891
revolutions and wars don't remove the state altogether, they replace it with a somewhat different one. voting doesn't even go to that extreme
the state was, is, and it always will be unable to sustain itself economically
I wouldn't know about us' domestic economy, I'm not north-american
| >>554891
if a company goes broke, others take advantage of it and ensure it stays down. competition and all
in any case, those which don't are always impaired with the state. a recurring character in corruption and deception acts
| >>554902 but individuals don't stop, they continue. If a government official is corrupt and they get caught, they're gone. If a head of a company fucks up, they get a sweet severance package and are back in charge of another corp next year. In politics, second place gets you oblivion. Capitalist economics reward a race to be the second. Just ask Facebook.
| >>554901 in the US the states that have democratic leadership have more robust economies and better standards of living. They have higher taxes, better schools, less poverty, better health outcomes, etc.
| >>554896
>portray themselves
exactly. it doesn't matter who they cosplay as, they are still *alt*-rightists
>>554906
we live in very different societies. our president was involved in the panama papers controversy and no-one cared. company owners here barely exist and get help from no-one, unless they are part of the agricultural complex, dominated by no more than 5 patrician families allied with the state
| >>554893
>>554893
and where I live at the state still mantains the same amount of spending while increasing taxation. after 4 years in office all they did was build around 100 schools in a small district
| >>554912
I refuse to have faith in the state as much as you refuse to have faith in private corporations. you americans have no right to complain about anything. labourers here live in wood and cardboard houses, or, in the best case scenario, in small apartment blocks. labourers there have standard houses and sometimes a personal vehicle
| >>554913
guess why, the state fucks all of us with taxes, including corporations. these refuse to invest here and therefore no-one can get a good job with a decent pay since there is zero private competition. the state is a poverty factory
| >>554913 by that logic if I just find some laborers poorer than yours I can use them to suggest that you have no right to complain either. But I won't do that because I think your criticisms are valid and are essential to improving things. I don't have faith in either, but I think very nature of capitalism itself rewards bad behavior. You can argue that government self-perpetuates in the same way.
| >>554917 taxation is theft, and property rights don't exist. We are arguing about a place somewhere in the middle. Do you have an ideal preference?
| >>554913 taxation is theft, and property rights don't exist. We are arguing about a place somewhere in the middle. Do you have an ideal preference?
| >>554919
Some say property is theft.
Taxation is not "theft". It's totally legal and legitimate. If not, you can start a lawsuit and as last option overthrow the state which "steals". But then don't expect a private company doing all the infrastructure stuff like public transport, telecommunication, education, security, health and nursing. It's going to be a even more cruel world than, with the law of the jungle, where the economical strong can totally oppress the economical weak.
| >>554915
>guess why, the state fucks all of us with taxes, including corporations. these refuse to invest here and therefore no-one can get a good job with a decent pay since there is zero private competition. the state is a poverty factory
You are talking about the capitalist state. Because it's capitalists who control it in all currently known cases (even if they call this state "socialist"). If they talk about "liberty" and "freedom", they mean it only for the big shots.
| >>554913
>I refuse to have faith in the state as much as you refuse to have faith in private corporations.
The big difference here is that the state can be participatory, transparent and democratically controlled while coorporations only have to fulfill one goal: increase profits. The problem here is that participativity, transparency and democratic control contradict this goal. Estate at least can (often it doesn't) act more universal, companys always act only particularistic.
This thread is permanently archived
| come watch Peterson get fucking owned lol