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Should we really work to live?
| If you have capital, you don't need to work. You just pay people to work for you and live from the surplus they generate.
| >>282175 but even then you have to work to keep that capital. Many people end up being burnt due to thinking that making a business guarantees profits.
I think you do work as an esential form of being. By socializing we're already finding a place where we have to do.
| "Lazy" people should be encouraged and helped to do something with their time, at least. I honestly can't imagine someone would be unproductive for very long unless they have problems or are prevented from being productive.
| I am productive and help others but it's all useless shit like video game wikis
| >>282255
No, you don't understand: you don't need to work with capital, because you let others do the work for you. The only ones you may loose your capital is getting fucked by other, mostly bigger, capitalists.
Then you have to work for them.
| >>020a14 Well not drop dead, but working is pretty essential to being a human being now. It's how we guarantee our survival. Like a trade in from hunting foot food, just doing boring jobs so we can buy food instead. It guarantees food and shelter. If you're THAT lazy you'd just drop dead sooner or later anyway, I guess.
| >>282433 the capital doesn't just come out of nowhere and you magically come out with it. If this was a plausible action during the previous centuries, it's become apparent that at the moment it can't. You have to go through education, work with institutions, talk with people and suddenly you're doing full work days worth of effort yourself. It's plausible to do no effort if your business it tiny or gigantic, but the majority is neither.
| As someone who could make more than median income in my locale off interest from my bank accounts & dividends from stocks, I would still say everyone still ought to work & contribute to society. I myself still work a blue collar job.
I'd say there ought to be a law that every adult would either find a job, be put to work at something they can do, even if that's merely knitting scarves or some mundane physical labor, or else be cut off from all government support.
| >>283374
Soviet Union had this law.
Please define "something a person can do", considering the century we live in. A poet occasionally self-publishing a book, living with a woman who gives private education, or a hentai artist, living off money from Patreon, or a videogame streamer on Twitch -- are they equally considered having a job? Because I bet that no government issuing that law would recognose them as such.
| A lot of commies think running a business and turning profit is easy. Ignoring interviewing and hiring employees, human resource management, taxes, expenses, seeking investment, morale, etc.. how is any of this done by one person and still be called lazy
| >>283827
If you really think all capitalists do this by them self, then you fell into a big image campaign to portray them as hard working and smart "enterpreneurs". In real-socialists dictatures you call it person-cult and propaganda.
In reality the real small/tiny capitalists work hard. The big ones hire people who do the administrative stuff. Of course they always risk to be played out by their top-managers, but a smart capitalists does not put all his eggs into one basket.
| >>282589
there are only four ways to get your own capital:
- by heritage
- by stealing
- by tricking other capitalists that lend you money.
- by enormous luck of doing the right thing in the right place at the right time. This is barley a real personal achievement.
No one becomes a millionaire by dishwashing. This is just a religious lie to give people hope: Work hard, don't question things and your kingdom will come!
| >Should we... to live?
no, living sucks
| >>283849
>you fell into a big image campaign to portray them as hard working and smart "enterpreneurs"
>>283859
>by enormous luck of doing the right thing in the right place at the right time. This is barley a real personal achievement.
The freshest example of this is the IT-branche where people like bill gates and steve jobs came out of their garages with almost nothing in their hands but their knowledge. Technological, yes but more important: juridical and marketing-strategical.
| >>283865
They had luck to work on something which is the next big thing. A whole new market,: "Information technology" which was (and still is) technically barely understood by politicians and capitalists. They actually do everything to cripple and limit this technology artificially to make it fit into their politic-economic ideology.
And all these Zuckerbergs, Jobs and Gate guys just close the door they went through by monopolizing the market and licencing "their" ideas.
| A person should live how he/she wants without being judged for it. There is no right or wrong to be found in these kinds of discussion.
| And yes by picking a lifestyle it will mean you get some benefits over another but that is the great thing about the choice. Lots of people in this world cant pick the life they want or make excuses for living a certain life
| >>283452
Yeah, I almost mentioned so but for the character limit. As you say, I'm probably more lenient than would be most governments, but if someone actually makes a living as an artist or writer then that certainly qualifies as work. Alternatively, for certain mediums like poetry, if a person's work is consistently highly evaluated, & they publish at a decent rate, then even if they don't make a great deal of money they're contributing to society by a reasonable definition, imo.
| Of course I'm not saying that you have to highly evaluated to be an artist, nobody would ever learn like that, but while you're starting out & nobody's sure whether you ever will be any good, you probably ought to keep up a more gainful endeavor. Plenty of famous authors, for example, wrote their first works whilst working a day job.
| >>282589
The origin of capital goes back to colonization and industrialization, which established the bourgeoisie as the new rulers against the old feudal elites like monarchs, nobles and clerics.
It's all about european countries like spain and england plundering in america, asia and africa, for gold, slaves and luxury goods. It was triggered by the ottomans trade-route blocking, who ironically lost their advantage they had by acquiring knowledge of ancient cultures.
| A lot of capitalists think large corporations are run the same way as small businesses. I've seen too much of this example in this thread.
| >>1d61ec
>implying running a business is easy enough thry could do it.
Why don't you prove it's easy to run a compamy?
The only way communists get capital. Stealing it from those that earn it.
| As more people are born and more jobs are lost to automation, the number of those who want to work and can't get a paycheck will brcome more and more clear. Joblessness leads to homelessness which in turn leads to starvation or worse. Its already a problem, just walk through the streets of San Francisco or New York.
The question is not "should we work to live" anymore, instead its "should those not working, die" in the US it seems anyways
| >>285073
This. Seems more & more often I see tossed around Corinthians 3:10, "Those who refuse to work must starve."
| >>285071
>The only way communists get capital. Stealing it from those that earn it.
You confuse "stealing" with "democratizing" and "earning" with "exploiting"
| >>285068
Well, the thing is that capitalism and capitalist propaganda is dominating, advertized as "truth" but failing massively, while communist propaganda hit some vunerable spots and is countered with cheap discrediting and nationalist, racist and religious fundamentalist esoteric voodo mumbo-jumbo lies.
| Life sucks working to a living sucks we should just become turtles and live a turtle life.
| >>96379d maybe you're selling lies you desperately need to believe.
>>96379d next you'll say it's for the greater good.
| We don't need to right now. We can automate food, why must we still work for it?
| Billionaires do not deserve to exist
| >>286198 I like how you claim they're lying to themself or how their evil without actually engaging anything they have said.
| >>1960c9
>Implying people are evil by merely existing
Next you will admit you're about taking what you didn't earn... oh wait.
| >>288232 if the "the greater good" doesn't mean doing actions that some would view as immoral in the short-term for a lofty long-term goals then english as language has stopped functioning.
| Literally kill and eat the rich though
| >>286198
"The greater good" is actually the lie capitalists want us to believe to justify their policy. And as more it becomes obvious beeing a lie, as more they sell us right-winger ideologies.
| >>82a205
"The greater good" is a lie lazy people like yourself use to justify not getting a job and mooching on the state. Again, if it was so easy to run a business, why haven't you done it yet?
| You all need to educate yourself on evolution, there is a creationist-tier understanding of selection criteria going on here.
| We were born to work. We go to school to prepare for a thing we are going to do most of the rest of our life. We go to school to learn what we can use and are good at, to put in out work. We will live out of it and die. Thats our life
| >>289506
>We were born to work.
Not all of us.
>We go to school to prepare for a thing we are going to do most of the rest of our life.
There are exclusive schools for those who don't have to do work.
>We will live out of it and die. Thats our life
Again you ignored that there are people who live out of other peoples work. And their children, or whoever they want, will receive it as a legacy.
| >>289203
>Again, if it was so easy to run a business, why haven't you done it yet?
I have no capital. All money I earn, goes straight to the landlord, supermarket (need food) and mandatory welfare (which I also may need once, e.g. if my "business" fails, i get seriously sick, etc.).
It would be much easier if i was born in a rich family, which could provide me capital. I alreade met such guys, in a private school (I worked there). Always the nose high up and raised to rule once.
| >>289203
Oh, ofcourse I could gamble, sitting in a garage and programing stuff maybe becoming the next Bill Gates. But hey, spoiler alert: People like Bill Gates already closed the doors they went through. It's called licencing policy and software-monopolism. No chance to do something new in the IT-world without sucking the big ones dicks. Time is over.
| >>291032
You realize this is what invetsment firms and bank loans are for right? Are you 12 years old or did you somehow slip through the cracks in learning how the real world works in favour of some sort of capitalist dystopia you pretend to live in?
| >>291032 you can take credit like most business venturers. Look up the economical theory on business ventures and innovations. It just seems like your own life is stuck in a rut. We live in the 21st century, not the Middle Ages.
| >>291550
>you can take credit like most business venturers.
I don't get a credit. Also taking a credit to start a business makes me in the end some kind of employee to those who gave it to me. Also I may have to reveal my business concept and ideas to them, so they could let it realize by cheaper "venturers" or at least license it before me. Small capitalists are always the bitches of big capitalists. They hunt an illusion or at least gamble for really small chance to become big.
| >>291550
>>We live in the 21st century, not the Middle Ages.
I'm not that sure about that. The
big capitalists act like nobles or clerics. And people are sedated with made up lies which separates them into made up groups like true-, false- or non-believers, nationalities and "races".
Neoliberalism led straight into neofeudalism, neonazism and also supported religious fundamentalism to encounter everything suspected as criticism.
| >>291550
>It just seems like your own life is stuck in a rut.
That's what most peoples lives do. There is no space for everyone beeing a "smart venturer" on daily real-life adventures. And it's not because all of these people are dumb or lazy. They just don't have a fucking chance or aren't raised as natural assholes, which you have to be to run a business. They are raised as sheeps that just should "give" the wool, milk and meat they are born with.
| >>291634
>aren't raised as natural assholes
Confirmed for not knowing how a business works. It's not because you are unprivileged, it's because you are dumb.
| >>291737
Confirmed my ass! I know how a business works. I already worked in some companies, bigger ones and smaller ones. The only difference is that in the smaller ones, the bosses also have to make their hands dirty from time to time.
Also being dumb does not exclude being unprivileged. Good education is also a privilege.
Btw. Just answer me one question:
From what do "prince" harry and "Douchess" meghan ("we're not the middle-ages") live? Do they work? Do they run a business?
| >>292079 and explain to me how they're relevant even in today's .1% then. The .1% has been recent people who through risk and discovery became some of the richest shmucks after years of working their assess off. But I guess you're right. The British monarchal part is relevant to politics and economy. Despite your own Marxist theory proving that fucking wrong.
| >>292086
>The .1% has been recent people who through risk and discovery became some of the richest shmucks after years of working their assess off.
Well a lie becomes not true by repeating it over and over again.
True is that the majority of rich people today became it by exploiting others or at least beeing born by those who did it before them. Have you ever met people that are or went on an elite (private) school? It was a key moment im my live, like visiting a parallel universe.
| >>292107
beside the moment, when I figured out, that my fucking ex-landlord was the brother of my ex-employer and every raise of loan did perfectly met with the raise of my rent. No, you won't convince me anymore about this system, which fails from day to day more in giving people chances, peace and freedom. The only way up for penniless people within this system is on the back of other people and will end falling deep or beeing the king of a deeply splitted and broken society.
| >>292086
>and explain to me how they're relevant even in today's .1% then.
They are a example for that it is possible, what you said is impossible:
Living without doing actual work, just by capital. You said it does not work, as every one who has capital has to work hard for managing it. Only one example was enough to prove you wrong.
| >>292079
The royal family in England exists because the British people tolerate it. The ones who did not left for America and started a cool little country called USA. The ones who remained are cucks, retards and vultures.
That said, noblesse oblige was mostly followed in Europe and the royals did a decent job of leading their respective nations to prosperity in the long term. Decent as in "not eating dirt like Africans still do today".
| >>292135 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford
Lots of the so called "long line rich people" are recently made ones who usually come from a poor background or had to abandon all their capital. You don't know the backstory of your landlord but will generalize simply because your life is not great. I will continue to use this argument.
| >>292079
Further, you seem to have problems with the idea of inheritance of wealth. Trying to shame people for letting their kids "eat the corpse" so to speak will never work, this is a very natural thing.
| >>292202
the backstory of my ex-landlord and also his brother, my ex-employer, is that their father owns a medium size business which he overtook from his father. During WW1 and WW2 they produced stuff for the military. They give a fuck about people. Their whole family is a snakepit of elitarian assholes ruling the whole region. Thats why I left this fucking place.
| >>292202
>simply because your life is not great. I will continue to use this argument.
I am pretty satisfied with my personal achievments, I don't expect much from live, beeing pretty minimalistic and modest. But there are greedy assholes who regulary put rocks and sticks in my way wanting to suck everything out of me but giving nothing in return. I don't know where I would be without my law-insurance, which took the laywer costs more then once. You just can't trust rich people.
| >>15a729 so it went from something easily done to a "gamble". I see you shifting the posts so soon. Interesting how you mention Gates who was drop out despite his sucess. So I'll repeat, if a drop out can do it then why haven't you?
| >>292334
>You just can't trust rich people.
That's a lesson I've learned early and serveral times in my still relative young live.
| >>e7545
>They give a fuck about people.
I'd think it'd be bad if they did NOT give a fuck about people.
| >>292334 I think it's more circumstantial. I suppose if we can add terms like exploitation, then the issue is for those that do apply it. I wouldn't say an entire group of people would follow the same idea "simply because they are like that by nature". It's more likely that the rich people genuinely interested in the people will just keep working vigilantly while cases like the one you seem to be familiar with will do their best to retain their position.
| >>292336
Because I think Bill Gates business concept (monopolizing the software market with licencing policy) is wrong. Even as a liberal capitalism fan you have do admit that a monopoly is bad for competition at the "free" market.
And yes, I am working on some stuff which one day maybe become a "big business". But success in business is more about studying law, and learn how to professionally break it, than about doing actual useful work.
| >>292347
>monopolizing the software market with licencing policy
Ah, I forgot to mention that he Bill Gates did "work" with stolen ideas.
Ironically in software business most substantial work is done at public, tax payed institutions like universities and then adopted for or by companys who almost do everything to avoid paying taxes.
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| people in modern societies seem to take working adults as a fact of life. but would you agree if someone told you that lazy people should just drop dead?