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Wrong perception/Missusage of Orwell

| I got the impression, that especially people that (want to) work in the technology sector and especially younger ones, have a surprisingly positive view on "technocracy". They reject more social approaches often by referring to the prominent and great works of George Orwell "Animal-Farm" and "1986". It seems like it's not commonly known that Orwell himself was a socialist who didn't at all criticize socialism itself. In fact his criticism was pretty much about technocracy.

| Have you observed the same phenomenon as described, or do you eventually have an entirely different opinion on the matter?

| I have never observed it, no.

Also I'm pretty sure the book is called 1984

| I'm aware that Orwell was a socialist and that 1984 wasn't supposed to be an anti-socialist book but it was the book that ultimately turned me off to the idea of socialism anyway.

Truth be told I'm not really sure if Orwell would be a socialist if he lived in today's world. Maybe he would though, what do I know?

| How is the society in 1984 even relatable to socialism? Literally the only thing it has in common with the ideology is that the government owns all the companies. Literally everything else about socialism is missing from the book.

Why people make this connection is beyond me.

| People equate authoritarian state that says it works for the people and knows what is best as socialist. Socialism is basically stalin in a gulag perception wise.

| >>667769 It's not really that the society is socialist, it's that imo socialism would inevitably lead to that kind of society. The same can be said about capitalism: a 100% free market would lead to a dystopian society as well, just a different kind of dystopia. Balance is a beautiful thing that I don't think enough people give credit to.

| Orwell seems to mostly be referenced by critics of socialism that don't actually understand what socialism is.

| 1986 lol

| >>667769

| >>667641
tbh i did notice the same. a lot of younget people around me are intrigued by the idea of a technocratic like state and honestly believe "everything technology" is the way to go. i have never really seen anti- socialist commentary in the book 1984 personally. it was more a piece of worldbuilding if you get me. but people are free to interprete the book as they see it, just never understood this socialism- talk regarding the book thats going on a lot of the times

| I don't think "everything technology" is the way to go.
I just genuinely think we have to push research in every possible direction as far as it can be pushed at this moment.

Of course, there are ethical limits to what experiments you can execute, but you must be able to AT LEAST theorize, even (maybe especially so) the most dangerous things.

Imagination is important. Minds must be open, and theory should be sharp and clear.

1984 is important too.

| >>667843
>100% free market would lead to a dystopian society as well, just a different kind of dystopia.
See "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley.

| >>668051
But are technology and research able to overcome capitalist reality on their own? As long things stay as they are, they only manifest or amplifies the separation of classes. This way all new technology will only serves the purpose to keep the status quo: More privileges for the privileged and more exploitation for the exploited.

| >>667746
1984 was an anti-stalinist book. While stalinism in fact came up in order of a socialist revolution, the book/orwell never claimed that this is the only and logical result where socialism has to end. Stalinism had in fact more fascist character than socialist.
One major flaw of marxist theory is it's claim to predict "unavoidabibility" and linearity of history. It's funny that people who oppose socialist ideas in general often make exactly the same mistake.

| >>669116
Why would it be the duty of research to overcome "capitalist reality" ?

How we use the >>>product of research is the real problem. We have to use it properly. We can't blame research for that.

| >>669193
Ok let's answer all questions then.

>But are technology and research able to overcome capitalist reality on their own?
No because they're just tools and means. Tools and means can be used for any purpose, harmful or not, capitalist or not. I just answered a rhetorical question, I guess !

>Why would it be the duty of research to overcome "capitalist reality" ?
Well it's not. Answering my own rhetorical question...

| >>669193
>Why would it be the duty of research to keep "capitalist reality" in order of capitalist ideology?
Erm, no.

Please, explain to me what ware fetish is.

| >>669195
Wait, are you blaming science/research ?
Or are you blaming intellectual property, and other artificial devices that "keep the status quo" ?

| What I was saying is that all technology should be developped and explored to the maximum of our ability.
Not for any motive in particular, but precisely because we might need it one day.
I also never said science/research was able to singlehandedly overcome capitalism.
It's a tool, nothing more.
It's all in how we build and use it.

| IP is just a way of putting a leash on intelligence. It's one of the reasons science can be held back in our current world. I personally find it to be a shitty and counter-productive game.

Unfortunately, it's here.
We're gonna have to make our own game inside of the current one, grow it until it's noticed and more attractive than the current one, and eventually put the older rules in the bin.

| I understand what you mean by your posts.
It just seemed like you were blaming science indirectly, and I didn't like this.
Please forgive me if it seemed like I was attacking you, it's not my intent at all !

| >>669200
The modern capitalist version of the dance around the golden calf.

| >>669205
>It's a tool, nothing more.
I don't think so. I would rather say it's like a natural force. It was technological advance which made cultures, societies and economical/political systems rise and fall. Without mechanization and industrialization we would still live in feudalism and believe in the superiority of god chosen kings, clerics and nobles. They started becoming irrelevant as soon production means became a more important power factor than land.

| ..which is actually a good progress. As an anticapitalist I admit that capitalism actually was an improvement compared to feudalism. But this kind of system we have now all over the world really and already is the peak of human ambitions it'll be very disappointing. Just look on the bad tendencies we have world wide. It's like the whole 20th century is going to repeat itself. Really stupid ideas and ideologies that were declared as buried walking around like zombies everywhere.

| Ahhh, I can't agree on the natural force part. Science feels very unnatural. It is discovered, theorized into knowledge, learnt...
and in the end used like a tool.
In itself, on paper, it has no impact.
However when you start applying knowledge and turning that to experience, change happens.
If science did contribute to worldwide changes of scale comparable to natural large scale phenomena, it is because people took the papers and used them actively.

| If anything is natural in it, it is human nature. If you do consider science to be a product of humanity, then I can see how by extension you would consider it a natural force of sorts.

| >>669326
>If you do consider science to be a product of humanity

What else would it be? The scientific process doesn't exist on its own.

| I very much dislike how people use his name. Calling shit they disagree with "Orwellian" just shows how misinformed and naive they are. Like, that's legit the type of shit flat earthers say.

It's very obvious that most people haven't read the book and only assume what the message is based on some 4chan post they read.

I haven't finished the book yet, but it's painfully obvious that "fuck socialism" is not the point, just from the first few chapters.

| >>669327
Well it just doesn't seem natural to me, that's all.

Total number of posts: 30, last modified on: Sun Jan 1 00:00:00 1592038440

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